I speak the truth in Christ–I am not lying, my conscience confirms it in the Holy Spirit–I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, those of my own race. [1]
Jewish Sorrow For Those Apart From Christ
In response to the inspired Apostle Paul’s anguished cry concerning the hopeless state of anyone apart from Jesus Christ, and specifically his Jewish brethren here, can’t you just hear a Rick Warren say, “Ah, chill man, it’s not that bad. It’s all gonna work out in the end.” Recently on Slice of Laodicea Ingrid Schlueter wrote a post called “Rick Warren Shows Up at Interfaith Shabbat Service” where she pointed out:
Rick Warren is taking his church growth ideas to those outside the Christian faith. He showed up last night at a Shabbat service called Friday Night Live to share with the Jews there how to apply Purpose Driven methodology and attract more people. I wonder if these Jews have ever heard of a Hula Praise Shabbat?
Writing for The Jewish Journal Editor-in-Chief Rob Eshman who attended this service informs us in his article “Jesus’ Man Has a Plan” that as he “sat listening to him speak at Sinai Temple’s Friday Night Live Shabbat services” he felt that there “are few people of any faith like Warren.” Well, it seems like we’re off to a good start here because both the Apostle Paul, and even Jesus Himself, had also taught in Jewish synagogues. However midway through the article we hit a huge speed bump which completely overturns the applecart when Eshman tells us:
The other secret to his success is his passion for God and Jesus. Warren managed to speak for the entire evening without once mentioning Jesus – a testament to his savvy message-tailoring… Good for him and his flock – and not so bad for us either. His teachings apply to 95 percent of all people, regardless of religious belief… Warren told Wolfson his interest is in helping all houses of worship, not in converting Jews. He said there are more than enough Christian souls to deal with for starters.
“Stealth Evangelism” Hides The Road To Hell
What; an alleged “Christian” minister of Jesus Christ never once mentioning His glorious Name, and never once sharing the Gospel with these dear Jewish people because “there are more than enough Christian souls to deal with”? How does Rick Warren know that? He doesn’t. Since when does the ambassador for Christ bring the message that his “interest is in helping all houses of worship, not in converting Jews” or anyone else? He doesn’t. The ministry of the true Christian has always been to say to people:
God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. [2]
Oh, but this is likely to “offend” people and the new evangelical Ecumenical Church of Deceit can’t have that. And herein we discover another example of the deadly man-centered theological poison of the seeker sensitive lie: They have removed the Cross of Jesus Christ from Christianity. However, once you remove this central message of the Christian faith where Jesus says – “But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself” (John 12:32), then you no longer have the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints, you have created another religion entirely. A spiritually putrid Purpose Driven religion of salvation by good deeds and good works according to the light within a given person that supposedly God will take into account to save men apart from His grace alone; through faith alone; in Christ alone.
It is a horrible lie, and it is yet another fulfillment of these chilling words from God the Holy Spirit:
Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons, through the insincerity of liars whose consciences are seared (1 Timothy 4:1-2)… But understand this, that in the last days there will come times of difficulty. For people will be lovers of self (2 Timothy 3:1-2)…
The Lord also warns… For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths. (2 Timothy 4:3-4, ESV)
And O how sad that at the very end of his article Ron Eshman writes:
I have no doubt the people who turned to Warren to help them reinvent synagogues for the 21st century can and will learn a lot from the man’s organizational skills. But the deeper message he conveys, his unstintingly devoted and enthusiastic faith – how in the world can we Jews learn that?
Obviously not from Rick Warren himself, and thus we see the dreadful eternal consequence for all those who only hear this emerging new evangelical social gospel of good works.
Disclaimer: Worldview Weekend, Christian Worldview Network and its columnists do not necessarily endorse or agree with every opinion expressed in every article posted on this site. We do however, encourage a healthy and friendly debate on the issues of our day. Whether you agree or disagree, we encourage you to post your feedback by using the feedback button.
Re: Rick Warren and Emerging New Evangelical Inclusivism
Posted On: 06/30/06 05:06:44 PM
Age 57, VA
On: 06/29/06 one of the bloggers who who defends Rick Warren and pretty much says anyone who does not, does not know his heart said this, " What if I told you the Jews Rick Warren spoke to were invited to his church and several came and heard a Gospel message? I don't know that he did but he might have and many might come." Well, I would just invite you to go to www.sliceof laodicea.com and scroll down to the article on June 27 called "Jewish Innovator Featured at Saddleback" and you will see he has invited them. And they came. Read the rest for yourself! As you read the quotes, just remember, that out of the heart the mouth speaks and where your heart is your treasure will be. Again it is apparent that Warren's heart is to join with false religions to cure the earth of its dread problems, minus the main problem Jesus came to irradicate, namely the sin problem in the heart of man!Again it was not his priority! Scary that people can't see it! Karen P.S.-don't think this is the same as Messianic Jews coming and sharing in a church. No, this is like Moslems coming and dancing for us in our churches! Or maybe some American Indians coming and doing an Indian dance in church for us. And when they are done they all clap and then they laugh and then they smile and then they all feel better- like they all really like each other- and then they agree to join hands to get rid of some worldly, earthly problems. Was this what Paul did? Karen Click here to reply to this post
Re: Rick Warren and Emerging New Evangelical Inclusivism
Posted On: 06/27/06 09:48:57 AM
Age 39, TX
Its amazing how the author of this article is able to discern Rick Warrens heart and motives. Is it possible he is in the process of sharing Christ with them? Is it possible he shared Christ with 10 or 12 people in conversations later and this gave him the forum to do it? Have you ever heard a sermon where Jesus was not named because it was a sermon on the Old Testament? The social Gospel failed because people began to believe that there works saved them and their works were the Gospel. They were great at working without giving faith in Christ the glory. Unless you know that Rick Warren is purposely leaving out Christ because he has some evil motive, tell me how his meeting with Jews is not right. What next, will he meet with Mormons? Will he invite a Jehovahs Witness to sit in his church? Maybe he should say believe in Jesus or go to Hell in every sentence he speaks and wear a coat and tie and read from the King James. Isnt that what Jesus did? - Darren Click here to reply to this post
Re: Re: Rick Warren and Emerging New Evangelical Inclusivism
Posted On: 06/27/06 01:52:44 PM
Age 50, NH
Darren,
You've commented numerous times on my articles and you should know very well I do not claim to "discern Rick Warrens heart and motives." However, you are being quite naive in your defense of these new evangelicals and do not appear to be reading the interior links. You ask: "Is it possible he is in the process of sharing Christ with them?" The Jewish writer of the article I quote, and who was there didn't think so. You ask: "Is it possible he shared Christ with 10 or 12 people in conversations later and this gave him the forum to do it?" The writer doesn't mention it so it is doubtful. You ask: "Have you ever heard a sermon where Jesus was not named because it was a sermon on the Old Testament?" This is the fallacy of the false analogy because an "Old Testament sermon" not mentioning Jesus by Name (apples) has no relevance to Warren, who is supposed to be a "New Testament" minister sent by Jesus (oranges) specifically to testify of Him, which clearly he did not do. You then wish us to chase red herrings when you say: "meeting with Jews is not right. What next, will he meet with Mormons? Will he invite a Jehovahs Witness to sit in his church?" This also has nothing to do with this article and if you add this into my thinking you then create a straw man because I personally have done each of the things you suggest. The difference is I did not go the entire time and not mention Jesus as Warren did by this eyewitness account. And finally, your sarcasm here: "Maybe he should say believe in Jesus or go to Hell in every sentence he speaks and wear a coat and tie and read from the King James. Isnt that what Jesus did?" would seem to show a hostility on your part to doing the work that we Christian ministers are specifically called to do. And darren, FYI; I do not advocate saying, nor do I say, those words in every sentence, I haven't worn a coat and tie in months, nor am I of the KJV-only camp. You might note I primarily use the NIV which would be anathema in that fundamental camp :-) I am not an evangelical nor a fundamentalist, I'm just doing the best I can to walk where my Master tells me, say what He gives me to say, and be willing to take the fight right to the enemy. However, you might note that I am not hostile to you or to those I must speak out about. It truly isn't anything personal because I live by 1 Corinthians 15:10, and but for God's grace I would be those I am trying to reach. Darren, please be willing to listen to someone when they tell you the truth. The road is narrow and the pathway steep as we must love the Lord our God with all our heart, soul, mind and strength. Only then will He remove the plank from our eyes that we might help those who have a speck of leavn in theirs. However, do remember what Christ said about a little leaven? Click here to reply to this post
Re: Re: Re: Rick Warren and Emerging New Evangelical Inclusivism
Posted On: 06/27/06 10:03:52 PM
Age 39, TX
Regarding Rick Warren being in the process of sharing Christ or sharing with 10 or 12, that it is doubtful, but you just don't know. What exactly did he do wrong? You want to tell me the truth, then tell me what he did wrong. My pastor speaks with businesses about ethics on several occasions with the purpose of inviting them to church. Is this wrong? He does not always express the Gospel. You are correct that I do not read all of the internal links. Four kids, ministry, work full-time, part-time seminary student, etc. and excuses I know. The reason I would say that I am not naive and that I believe Rick Warren's method are one way to share Christ is becuase I see them working as I see other methods working. I have seen with my own ears and eyes new believers, serving and bearing fruit as the result of emerging, seeker-sensitive, mega methods in prisons, Russia, France, and Texas. I have seeing other methods work as well. I have experience to confirm that there are many methods to share the Gospel. My sarcasm was directed at bloggers on Slice and should not have been directed at you. My apoligies. There I go doing the generalizing that I have been critical of. Rick is doing a lot of good. I just don't see the heresy. Love you brother - Darren Click here to reply to this post
Re: Re: Re: Re: Rick Warren and Emerging New Evangelical Inclusivism
Posted On: 06/28/06 02:35:13 PM
Age 53, NY
What has Rick Warren done wrong? Jesus told us that if you deny Him before men that He would deny you before the Father but if you confess Him before men He would confess you before the Father. Is that clear enough? Click here to reply to this post
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Rick Warren and Emerging New Evangelical Inclusivism
Posted On: 06/28/06 09:59:19 PM
Age 39, TX
When did Rick Warren deny Christ? Are you suggesting he present the plan of salvation to every group to whom he speaks? Do you do that? I think you are trying to hold him to a very difficult standard. If you have heard him specifically deny Christ when directly asked to present the Gospel, please let me know. - Darren Click here to reply to this post
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Rick Warren and Emerging New Evangelical Inclusivism
Posted On: 06/29/06 07:36:56 AM
Age 53, NY
You asked when did Rick Warren deny Christ. Here is an excellent quote from Richard Bennett in an article he wrote on Rick Warren's book the Purpose Driven Life, who explains it in word better than I can. Hopefully this will cause you to reconsider a man you seem to love and defend as to whether he is actually on the side of Christ or is one who makes merchandise of Him to prey upon people who are sincerely trying to serve God and share the gospel.
quote
He [God] created the church to meet your five deepest needs: a purpose to live for, people to live with, principles to live by, a profession to live out, and power to live on. There is no other place on earth where you can find all five of these benefits in one place.
Warren is dead wrong in his list of deepest needs. On the authority of the Bible, the first and foremost need of any man is perfect righteousness before the All Holy God. It is Christ Jesus righteousness alone that God will accept as a propitiation for any mans sin and sin nature. This primary need of man is constantly shown in the Bible but Warren does not even mention this foundational truth in his list of deepest needs. Warrens quick switch from Gods purpose to mans methods falls under the first temptation ever recorded in the Bible. Satan offered to Eve the fruit as the way of achieving a spiritual purpose, in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. Warren teaches that God created the church to meet your five deepest needs just as the Roman Catholic Church says, The Church is the mother of all believers.[9] Warren, like Rome, has switched from obedience to the Word and Person of the Living God to submission to a church to achieve ones needs. It is the oldest and cleverest temptation known to man. End of Quote
There are multiple more examples of Rick Warren denying Christ, the gospel, Biblical Prophecy and its importance in the life of a believers, instructing people to bring the world which is at enmity with God into the Church (primarily in the music the world loves) yet for all this Rick Warren is still quite capable of putting on a show of a form of godliness while denying the power thereof. Will you do the same? Or will you come out from among them who 'play church' and be separated unto Christ who shed His blood for you? Click here to reply to this post
Re: Rick Warren and Emerging New Evangelical Inclusivism
Posted On: 06/29/06 11:15:56 AM
Age 39, TX
Second to Scripture, the writings of John Piper guide more than any other author but some others are guiding me and Rick Warren is one. Rick Warrens Purpose #1 Its not about me using Col. 1:16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. The for him is the key. All the purposes are only obtained through a right relationship with Jesus Christ and all those purposes are for Gods glory. He clearly lays this out in his writings. Watch the video on his website. I think folks cherry pick things he says to fit their purpose. He is one of many Christian folks I defend and love because I see the fruits of their service. For the record, I was very critical of Joel Osteens Larry King performance because he denied salvation in Christ alone. Thats the difference. Joel committed a sin of commission. You are assuming Rick committed a sin of omission. But you just dont know because you do not know his heart. God does and we can both agree on that. - Darren Click here to reply to this post
Re: Re: Rick Warren and Emerging New Evangelical Inclusivism
Posted On: 06/29/06 03:34:08 PM
Age 53, NY
Really? If I was going to follow any man's example and teaching on this earth I sure would want to make sure they were faithful to Scripture, to the Word of God, to the Truth and not merely a skillful manipulator of the Bible like liberal attorneys manipulate the Constitution to twist it to say things the signers never meant it to say.
Nowhere in Rick Warrens teaching of what he sees as our 5 purposes of, worship, fellowship, real discipleship, real ministry and real evangelism does he deal with the subject of Real Truth and of being salt and light.
Jesus said,
Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.
Matthew 5:13
The flow of context here in Jesus Sermon on the Mount is quite different than that of Rick Warrens teaching.
After all if you abandon the Truth of Gods Word your worship is false. It may entertain you. It may touch your emotions. But worship apart from the Truth is still false no matter how popular it may be with the world. If you do not walk in the light of what God teaches and rather walk in the darkness of what men of this world have imagined for themselves and teach and what is pleasing to them you do not have fellowship with the true saints of God who did walk in the light of Gods Word even when they were persecuted, rejected imprisoned and killed for their stand for the Truth, let alone fellowship with Holy God Himself. If you do not have real Truth you may be becoming conformed to the image of an imaginary Christ but not to The Christ the One whom God Himself reveals in Scripture. If you do not have real Truth but rather walk in the teachings men have invented your service of God is vain and your ministry worthless. If you do not have real Truth it is impossible for you to have the real gospel and your evangelism is a damnable counterfeit unable to save men from the wrath to come.
Without Truth - Your Worship is False
Without Truth - You do not have Fellowship with the Saints, let alone with God
Without Truth - You are not a disciple of Jesus Christ
Without Truth - Your ministry is worthless
Without Truth - You do not have the real gospel and your evangelism is a damnable imitation, an accursed counterfeit.
No wonder that God tells us in Proverbs 23:23 to, Buy the Truth and sell it not. Click here to reply to this post
Re: Re: Re: Rick Warren and Emerging New Evangelical Inclusivism
Posted On: 06/29/06 09:45:25 PM
Age 39, TX
John Piper, Chip Ingram, David Jeremiah, Rick Warren, Ken Silva, John MacArthur have all clearly stated the Scriputers to be the authoritive and truthful Word of God. So I will read these guys. Not worship them, but listen to them. I will not agree with them everytime, but I will listen. - Darren Click here to reply to this post
Re: Re: Rick Warren and Emerging New Evangelical Inclusivism
Posted On: 06/27/06 12:37:57 PM
Age 57, VA
The early church that met in homes certainly were not focused on reaching the unchurched. They were interested in reaching the lost. You can use all kinds of methods to reach the unchurched and they will come fill your seats. But when your heart is to reach the lost, the message and methods have to be biblical. Only the spirit of God can change lives, through the preaching of the Gospel, that we are sinners on our way to hell, and if we don't repent of our sins and begin to live for Jesus, we will not be saved. Big screens with Jesus hanging on the Cross during the worship doen't save a person necessarily. It will make them cry. But many people will be crying their way into hell. Warren is circumventing the Gospel rather than taking it to the world. He has actually said " his interest is in helping all houses of worship, not in converting Jews. He said there are more than enough Christian souls to deal with for starters." What a smoke-screen! For starters???! Since when did he just "start" into this Christian thing? Plus Christians are already Christians! This is called "speaking with forked tongue" and hoping it will go unnoticed. Most of the time the world likes the "forked tongue message" and it DOES go unoticed by them. Good for Mr. Warren! However behind it all is that he just doesn't want to rock their boats because he believes their faith will get them to heaven. Just wait, it will all become more visible in the near future! Warren's focus is not going into all the earth preaching the Gospel, making disciples of all the nations, babtising them in the name of the Father and Son and the Holy Spirit. He is hob-nobbing with the world, thinking ... oh my gosh, the thought just occured to me that many undiscerning might begin to equate Warren's success with Billy Graham's! I hope not! Warren's theology is lacking and anyone who can't see it is into a lot of "wishful thinking." Click here to reply to this post
Re: Re: Re: Rick Warren and Emerging New Evangelical Inclusivism
Posted On: 06/27/06 03:17:43 PM
Age 57, VA
In reference to Warren being equated with Billy Graham: Warren is being brought before kings and queens, so to speak,and presidents and people in high places, much like Billy Graham. Read between the lines, though. He is not having stadiums filled with High Ranking Jews and other religious and national leaders inorder to convert them, rather when he finds himself in their midst in mass, he facilitates them promoting their own religious agendas or worldly issues. Hey, Warren is # 60 on the Forbes Celebrity 100, along with JK Rowling, Harry Potter author, Jessica Simpson, Jodi Foster, Tom Cruise...check it (it was posted on June 23. 2006 at www.sliceoflaodicia.com ! I think there is some sort of fine line between having a good reputation with the world and fitting right in! I don't think Jesus would EVER have made the list! Click here to reply to this post
Re: Re: Re: Re: Rick Warren and Emerging New Evangelical Inclusivism
Posted On: 06/27/06 04:16:26 PM
Age 52, VA
Preachers that want to be popular should heed Luke 6:26: Woe to you when all men speak well of you, for that is how their fathers treated the false prophets. Click here to reply to this post
Re: Re: Re: Rick Warren and Emerging New Evangelical Inclusivism
Posted On: 06/27/06 03:00:38 PM
Age 39, TX
I see that you, like the author of this article know Rick Warren's heart and motives. That awful unregenerate Saddleback church of his has thousands of "unchurched" people who were "lost" and now they are churched and found and passionate in service and missions to spread the name of Christ all over the world. How about a few people who started a church in their home with six families and opened their fellowhship to some unbelieving neighbors and lived life with them and introduced them to the Gospel. That is a church too. Why does the size of a church matter. If you read Purpose Driven Church he hardly emphasizes membership numbers but he does emphasize spiritual growth. Were the 3000 saved in Acts 2 by Peter's mega church meeting really saved? I believe the Scripture says so. Can every pastor say that they specifically express the plan of salvation in Christ alone in every sermon they ever give? If not, I guess they are heretical like Rick Warren. While he is out spreading the Gospel others are spending their time criticizing his methods. Click here to reply to this post
Re: Re: Re: Re: Rick Warren and Emerging New Evangelical Inclusivism
Posted On: 06/27/06 04:17:01 PM
Age 57, VA
I would refer you back to Pastor Silva's comments to you and leave you also with the question, "What do you think the Gospel is?" Unfortunately, like many, you are emotional about Christianity but don't really know the Scriptures and have some idea that the Gospel is talking about christian things or christian stuff! That is not the Gospel! Only the Gospel will bring salvation. It must be preached if we are concerned for the lost. If we want to reach the unchurched, we will talk about chirstian things and stuff. When the 3000 were saved they preached the Gospel to the lost. You need to understand what the Gospel is. I am not partial to house church. I just am not partial to mega churches either! I am partial to the Gospel being preached. Click here to reply to this post
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Rick Warren and Emerging New Evangelical Inclusivism
Posted On: 06/27/06 09:49:09 PM
Age 39, TX
When Joel Osteen was on the Larry King Show and asked directly to express the Gospel he failed. He apoligized but he did fail to do it and it was correct for him to be criticized. Where did Rick Warren fail? Had he been asked to share his faith and had he not shared the Gospel, I would criticize him. Is it possible he is in the process of sharing the Gospel with these Jewish folks. The reason I reply to these posts and particularly to Pastor Silva's articles is because I think they offer excellent dialogue on how we share the Gospel. I am not on an agenda to be right, but I am on agenda to relevent to those around me so I can have an opportunity to share the Gospel. Since you feel I do not understand the Gospel or the Scriptures, I will clarify. Man is born with a sin problem that he cannot overcome. Faith in Christ alone is the only way to overcome that sin problem. Christ is God and all things are for His glory. Is it possible there is more than one way to express that? I think so. I think Rick Warren and Jonathan Edwards and John Piper's methods for sharing the Gospel are great and they work. I am sure that in your church and Pastor's Silva's church or when you speak with the lost your method works. Didn't Christ share the Gospel in many ways? I was in a taxi in Manhattan last week, and I tried to share Christ with a Muslim taxi driver. He told me Jesus was only a prophet. He kept cutting me off and would not let me share the Gospel. Since I knew I only had 5 minutes with this guy I was very aggressive. With my neighbor, I might have a cookout with him and watch a ballgame and over a few meetings share the Gospel. I will have fellowship with him and live like someone who knows Christ as Savior and then share the Gospel. Is it possible that Rick Warren is in the cookout phase with this Jewish group? Thanks for taking the time to share your thought with me brother. Your passion for the Lord is expressed in your writing. - Darren Click here to reply to this post
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Rick Warren and Emerging New Evangelical Inclusivism
Posted On: 06/28/06 08:23:21 PM
Age 57, VA
The Gospel is the Good News, the message of Christ's Death, Burial and Resurrection and how we can obtain Eternal life through it. It includes some things that were not visible to the human eye but were accomplished behind the scenes, such as the defeat of Satan. AND THE GOSPEL REQUIRES THAT A PERSON MUST "REPENT" OF THEIR SINS AND CONFESS JESUS AS HIS LORD AND SAVIOR IN ORDER TO BE SAVED. THE GOSPEL IS THE GOOD NEWS, THE MYSTERY, THAT WAS GIVEN TO PAUL TO THE CHURCH CONCERNING ALL THAT HAPPENED TO JESUS FROM THE CROSS TO THE THRONE; AND, HOW WE CAN BECOME BORN AGAIN BY REPENTING OF OUR SINS AND BELIEVING WHAT JESUS ACCOMPLISHED FOR US THERE. My concern is the lack of info about the need to repent in the seeker friendly, emergent, purpose driven methodologies! One can't have Jesus without repenting. Aside from that I have one question for you. Why did Rick Warren go to another group of people who desperately need salvation and teach them how to increase their numbers? If that same Muslim asked you to come talk to a group of his friends, would you have gone and shared Warrens Church Growth methods with the intentions of later telling them that you REALLY wanted them to become Christians? Would you first tell your Jehovah Witness neighbor over a burger how he could fill the Kingdom Hall? While fixing her washing machine, would you first tell your psychic neighbor how she could get more business? Would you first tell your Wiccan neighbor how he can get more members while you chat at the mailbox each day? Would these things really be your topics of discussion with the intentions of later telling them they need to repent of the very things you were telling them how to promote? I think integrity would choose a different topic to share, I think love for Jesus would choose a different topic to share. I know young girls who are dancers. Would I share with them my thoughts on how they could get more customers with the intentions of slowly leading them to the Lord? No! From the beginning my love for them would compel me to share the Gospel with them, otherwise, I would be working against Jesus! I really feel sorry for Paul, who was stoned and left for dead! He certainly did not have it down how to win friends and influence people the way R. Warren does. If he had just used a different approach with the Jews and different groups by maybe first telling them how they could increase their numbers, then, maybe he could have avoided a whole lot of heartache and persecution for himself. He might have even avoided years in prison and even made the Money Changers top 100 list! Instead he always seemed to mess things up for himself by sharing the Gospel. (I am being facetious) It brought a lot of persecution and troubles his way, but he refused to flatter, he refused to compromise, he refused to minimize and in so doing, some got saved and some did not believe the message! Paul asked believers to pray for Him that "God would open to us a door of utterance to speak forth the mystery of Christ, for which I have also been imprisoned, in order that I may make it clear in the way I ought to speak." His focus was to share the Gospel at every turn. He laid his life down for the Gospel. He told the believers, "Imitate me as I imitate Christ." Karen Click here to reply to this post
: Re: Rick Warren and Emerging New Evangelical Inclusivism
Posted On: 06/29/06 10:43:02 AM
Age .39, TX
Karen - I think it would be great for the Purpose Driven Program to be introduced to all of those entities you named. The reason is because it is a spiritual growth program, not an increase your numbers program. Some people mistakenly think that because there church is small and they need to use this program to make their church bigger. Size has little to do with a successful church. Spiritual growth, service, benevolence, missions, Biblical preaching, those are the marks of a successful church. The Purpose Driven program drives toward the Gospel. The Gospel is throughout the program. It is like a big tract, so I would love for it to be introduced into those entities. Could a cult like the Mormons, think that all the Gospel talk is something they already have, possibly. Regarding, Paul we all need to decide what we are willing to sacrifice for God. I have done things in Russia that could have me arrested, but I saw the furtherance of the Gospel worth it. That is a personal decision and we cannot judge Rick Warren on his personal sacrifice. We do not know his views on his fame or money. He may hate them. He has spoken for years on his passion to see the lost are saved and that is what he is doing. When Paul complemented the Areopagus for being religious was he being seeker-sensitive, finding common ground, condescending, or man-centered. I think he was trying to connect to give him a platform to share the Gospel. Press On Darren. Click here to reply to this post
Re: : Re: Rick Warren and Emerging New Evangelical Inclusivism
Posted On: 06/29/06 03:00:15 PM
Age 42, NC
Your opening statement above says much. What spirits are you trying to grow? There are many spirits though not all are of God. That is why we are admonished to try the spirits and see if they are of God. What these cults need is the TRUTH, they need Jesus Christ, they need to see that they are lost and on their way to hell because of sin, they need to repent and be saved... In what week of the "Purpose driven" program will they hear these things? Don Click here to reply to this post
Re: Re: : Re: Rick Warren and Emerging New Evangelical Inclusivism
Posted On: 06/29/06 09:57:41 PM
Age 39, TX
What if I told you the Jews Rick Warren spoke to were invited to his church and several came and heard a Gospel message? I don't know that he did but he might have and many might come. The goal of several folks on this blog is to pick at everything he does. Folks can say that I am deceived and the other thousand pastors are deceived or it could be the other way around. Rick has presented the Gospel message of salvation in Christ alone to thousands in several countries, in his church and individuals. Maybe some folks are being deceived and want to stop him from sharing the Gospel. He has a presentation video on his website right now. Why would these folks try to stop him from sharing the Gospel. It seems that only the deceived would try to prevent him from sharing the Gospel. I will say the most numerous complaint I hear about Rick Warren, and I heard today from radio host, is that the music in our church is changing to be more seeker senstive. They even got rid of the organ. Who is man-centered? The one changing their music to reach the lost or the one who wants there organ. I don't worship Rick Warren. He is just a sinner like you and me. I worship Christ. Lets let him share the Gospel and quick beating him up for every little thing. Click here to reply to this post
Re: : Re: Rick Warren and Emerging New Evangelical Inclusivism
Posted On: 06/29/06 02:03:20 PM
Age 57, VA
Darren, as I told someone this morning, I enjoy this site because I can see and hear for myself just how far many have strayed from what the Bible teaches. I understand your thinking, I understand that you are locked into your thinking for now ,but it does not line up with scripture. And as sincerely as I got into this discusssion, I will now bow out of it. I see where you are coming from, it has been made visible, and I believe you are deceived. I hope that as things bcome more apparent that many will comprehend what is trying to be revealed about the desception in PDL, emergent, etc. God Bless you, karen Click here to reply to this post
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Rick Warren and Emerging New Evangelical Inclusivism
Posted On: 06/28/06 03:20:51 PM
Age 42, NC
A: Cook-out phase?? What happens if your neighbor or this group of Jews die before you get the grill warm? "When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand" Ezekiel 3:18
B:Is there no discernment at all, anymore? Charles Spurgeon said something along the lines of, You talk with me for five minutes and I will tell you where your heart is. Peter and John said it as well, "But Peter and John answered and said unto them, Whether it be right in the sight of God to hearken unto you more than unto God, judge ye. For we cannot but speak the things which we have seen and heard." Acts 4:19-20
If Rick Warren did speak to this audience of Jews for as long as it seems and did not mention Jesus Christ, but instead touted "his" methodology for group growth, then his own actions testify against him. He has shown his heart and mind is more about selling his methods and agenda than presenting the Gospel and person of Jesus Christ to a lost and dying world. Don Click here to reply to this post
: Re: Rick Warren and Emerging New Evangelical Inclusivism
Posted On: 06/28/06 10:12:10 PM
Age 39, TX
Don - Are you telling me that you present the Gospel to every single person you meet the second you meet them? If not, than you should not hold Rick Warren to that standard. You do not know his motives and you do not know what drives him. Not every church has benefited from his program and not every church should use his program. But he has heard from hundreds of churches that have benefited. Perhaps thats what drives him. You assume that fame and money drive him, but since none of us know we should reserve judgement. When Paul was with the Areopagus in Acts 17 he did not mentioned Jesus Christ. He talked about the Man whom God appointed and the resurrection. He was in the process of sharing the Gospel in a way that would communicate to that audience and some wanted to hear from him again. Sometimes it is a process. But I guess since he did not specifically lay out the plan of salvation and specifically say the name of Jesus Christ, Paul was in error, just like Rick Warren. Some plow, some sow, some reap. It is possible Rick Warren was plowing? Thanks for your feedback. - Darren Click here to reply to this post
Re: : Re: Rick Warren and Emerging New Evangelical Inclusivism
Posted On: 06/29/06 02:34:41 PM
Age 42, NC
To answer the first question, No.. not the first second I am with someone but somewhere in the course of conversation I try and let others know where I stand and give a testimony for Jesus Christ and what He has done for me. Of course I often fail to give a full gospel presentation, and I do hold myself to a higher standard than I do others.
To answer the second half of your statement, you have failed to put the whole chapter in context. In verses 2 and 3 we see how Paul operated: "And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures, opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ." According to your interpretation of verse 31 then Paul likewise did not preach Jesus as the Christ to the Bereans either.?? How can one preach of the resurrection and the power of the resurrection without preaching Jesus is the Christ? Keep text in context.
Lastly and I say this as humbly as I know how with love and concern, beware of setting any "man" on a pedestal and blindly following them. Be as the Bereans and dilligently search the Scriptures to see if what they say is true. Learn to discern through doctrine, and reject the traditions of men when they are in conflict with God's Word. God is not the author of confusion and He will not sanction that which is contrary to His own Word. If it is contrary to the Word of God in any point then it is an echo from the Garden of Eden..."Yea, hath God said?" Don Click here to reply to this post
Re: : Re: Rick Warren and Emerging New Evangelical Inclusivism
Posted On: 06/29/06 04:46:49 AM
Age 57, VA
Even you admit that Paul shared Christ and Christ crucified. Without referring to his heart or motives, Rick Warren ONLY shared his church growth methods with the lost. I think it is presumptuous and risky to assume he would definitely be invited back and given a second chance to "get to the point." Proverbs 18:2 says, "And some are fools who have not interest in understanding; they only want to air their own opinions." For those who want to understand, I believe you do and will. But their are those who just want to air their own opinions and they will continue to be deceived! Karen Click here to reply to this post
Re: Re: : Re: Rick Warren and Emerging New Evangelical Inclusivism
Posted On: 06/29/06 10:47:53 AM
Age 39, TX
So the lesson is that no Christian should speak to any group unless they are going to present a clear Gospel presentation. My point is that we don't know his motive. We should not judge him so harshly.-Darren Click here to reply to this post
Re: Rick Warren and Emerging New Evangelical Inclusivism
Posted On: 06/27/06 08:26:05 AM
Age 76, NY
The article was good, insofar as it focused on the fact of two faiths, and the one being lectured to was to focus on what could perhaps best be called social middle ground.
Perhaps the real and more pertinent critique might better be directed to the idea that the biggest, almost corporate-designed and successfully marketed "faith" exhortations are a "business" rather than a faith.
If the Rick Warren message were presented in a social, or community venue, it could be seen as a path to learning how to work together by reaching common ground or ground-rules.
To present it in denominational settings of all kinds, as a "way of living," (while reaping great rewards from the presentations) seems disengenuous at the least, and perhaps almost like setting up a new religion to replace all the ones which have been exhorted to become immersed in this new belief system. Click here to reply to this post
Re: Rick Warren and Emerging New Evangelical Inclusivism
Posted On: 06/27/06 01:51:02 AM
Age 57, VA
That is as absurd as this: One day after Jesus had fed the 5000, a few Rabbis came to Him and said,"Jesus, we know you are a great teacher and we are blown away at the crowd that you draw and your ability to keep them so long! Could you come show us exactly how you do this, so we can increase our numbers in our synagogues?" And Jesus, replies, "Marvel not, you too can do this and increase your numbers! Sure thing, when do you want me to come?" How absurd to think that Jesus or any other Christian would attend a seminar to show them how to increase their religion, when Jesus came to give them eternal life through believing on Him. He came to empty their synagogues, not fill them! How preposterous! Click here to reply to this post
Re: Re: Rick Warren and Emerging New Evangelical Inclusivism
Woodrow Kroll, David Jeremiah,Sean McDowell, Josh McDowell, David Barton, Carl Kerby, Frank Harber, Kerby Anderson, and the Branson Family Reunion DVD Set! This is a $74.95 value for only $34.95! FREE worksheet with purchase!
