The EmergentChurch -- Theological “Sons of Jeroboam”
By Bob DeWaay
In January of this year I debated EmergentChurch leader Doug Pagitt. During my twenty minute opening statement, I used Scripture to establish the fact that God Himself through His Word determines the boundaries of how we come to God and walk with Him. I used simple logic: either there are boundaries on how we come to God or there are not. Since no boundaries would open the door to universalism, there are boundaries. Since there are boundaries, either God determines the boundaries or man does. Since man is the fallen sinner who needs to come to God, he can hardly be trusted to determine valid boundaries. So logically God must determine the boundaries of how man comes to God.
Pagitt rejected my logic as “binary reductionism” but would not reveal what boundaries, if any, he considered valid. He clearly was very uncomfortable with the idea of restrictions and boundaries. This is not a unique situation.
There was a king in Israel who decided that he could set up his own way of coming to God. The king was Jeroboam.Jeroboam received a prophecy that God was going to tear 10 tribes away from Solomon and give them to him (1Kings 11:31) because of the idolatry of Solomon (1Kings 11:33). Solomon thendecided to put Jeroboam to death, but Jeroboam fled to Egypt until Solomon died (1Kings 11:40). At Solomon’s death the prophecy came true and Jeroboam became king over the 10 northern tribes.
However, once God had made Jeroboam king, Jeroboam became concerned. Hereasoned: “If this people go up to offer sacrifices in the house of the Lord at Jerusalem, then the heart of this people will return to their lord, even to Rehoboam king of Judah; and they will kill me and return to Rehoboam king of Judah” (1Kings 12:27). So, being a pragmatist, he set up two convenienthouses of worship: Dan in the northern part of the realm and Bethel inthe southern part. Then he made priests out of non-Levites and instituted his own feast day, hoping to keep the people from going to Jerusalem as required by Torah.
To further make the new way of worshipping God amenable to the people, he placed a golden calf in each place of worship:“So the king consulted, and made two golden calves, and he said to them, ‘It is too much for you to go up to Jerusalem; behold your gods, O Israel, that brought you up from the land of Egypt’” (1King 12:28).He believed himself to have the right to determine the images and practices of his version of Yahweh worship.
Jeroboam thought he could come to God anyway that he saw fit. Prophets of God spoke to him (1Kings 11:31; 13:1; 14:7-10) and he was healed by God (1Kings 13:6), but in the endhe was judged as an evil doer (1Kings 14:10-14). Jeroboam saw no need to follow the prescriptions of Torah concerning how Israel was to worship God. How wrong he was!
Modern “sons of Jeroboam” are making the same mistake. Consider the following story from the book Church Re-imagined by Doug Pagitt.
“Our last pose of the evening is called ‘savasana’ or corpse pose. The student lies on her back letting the legs fall open as they will, the arms hang limp like empty coat sleeves. The face, the forehead, the space between the eyebrows all relax, and the person melts heavily into the floor. Eyes are closed, breathing is rhythmic. I turn the lights off, and only the glow of candles and sometimes fireplace illuminates the room. This state of being is holy. It is at this time that we become closer to God, aware of our bodies, of the divine. . . . Slowly people get up, talk, commit to a daily practice of yoga in hopes of getting this feeling again and again. We are hesitant to leave this moment of shared reverence, this experience of worship.” (Church Re-imagined: 87, 89)
I asked Doug about this during our debate and made it clear that I believed practicing yoga like this was crossing a God-given boundary. He said that this portion of his book was written by someone else, but he would stand by it.
The thing that stood out to me during this debate was how very little we had in common. In fact when we no longer agree that inerrant, authoritative Scripture determines the boundaries of our faith and practice, we actually end up with nothing in common. The EmergentChurch is going the way of Jeroboam and providing practices for Christians that have more in common with the pagan culture than they have with the Bible. Leaving man to determine his own boundaries is to have no boundaries. The simple answer is to repent and come to God on His terms.
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Crossing boundaries is one thing but if we perform a persoanl ritual that symbolizes that we are ready to listen to God then we haven't crossed any. If having put ourselves into a receptive state of mind God wishes to communicate with us then I think we should his wishes.The method of doing this doesn't matter. Also I didn't read in any scriptures that God was never going to update his views or the way we could communicate with him. Hundreds of years ago it was probably convenient for him to communicate through a few individuals,that way people learnt about God and they knew they had to go to church at a set time to learn more. Times have changed now and people no longer need to be told what God says because they can hear it direct if they listen.
Just think how strong and secure Christianity would be if all its members could all listen direct to God and had their own personal relationship with him. Then people wouldn't believe in God, they would know God. What Christian wouldn't wish that for everybody? Click here to reply to this post
Re: The Emergent Church -- Theological Sons of Jeroboam
Posted On: 03/08/06 11:34:11 PM
Age 50, GA
Oddly, or coincidentally I was reading these articles on the emergent church today, because I don't know much about it. Somehow, later, totally unrelated this (I thought), I clicked on an old article saved in my favorites, about the pastor that was electrocuted last year, and noticed this line in the article - "Kyle Lake has been a leader in the movement known as the emerging church. His death -- electrocuted while performing a baptism -- is a tragedy in human terms." I never noticed that before, or even have looked at the article, since it was in the news. Don't know why I clicked on it, or even read it. I was wondering if anything more had come out about his death. I like to look for relevance sometimes, about why seemingly bad things happen to good people. Just wondering... Of one thing I am sure, there is no such thing as coincidence to a believer.
Anyway, back to the article related to this feedback. His excerpt regarding the corpse pose, is hard to imagine coming from someone that claims to be a Christian. It seems to be highly sexually suggestive. Yoga is not Christian meditation, we meditate on the Word. This idea of worship, for worship's sake, without the guidance of the spirit of truth (the Word), is something I've heard before... it's a little frightening. FYI - You'll find the words "worship me" appearing together four times in the New Testament, know who says them? Twice Jesus is warning of vain insincere worship, and the other two times they are said directly by Satan. Click here to reply to this post
Re: The Emergent Church -- Theological Sons of Jeroboam
Posted On: 03/07/06 10:10:59 AM
Age 50, IL
To quote your article: "Scripture determines the boundries of our faith and practices." and "leaving man to determine his own boundries is to have no boundries."
This is correct. Might we apply this to the church as a whole? How much of what we do is based on our own boundries and not the boundries that God has already established.
God gave us Passover: Ex 12:1-14:31
Deut 16:1-8
Lev 23:4-8
Matt 26:17-30
Tabernacles Nu 29:12-40
Lev 23:33-43
Deut 5:12-15
John 7
Feast of Weeks: Deu 16:9-12
Lev 23:15-22
Num 28:26-31
Acts 2
Instead we have bunnies & eggs, trees & candy canes.If we research the ancient Babylonian and Greek pagan practices, there is an eerie similarity.
I know, I know, we are not "under the law".
1John 3:4 Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact sin is lawlessness.
Jesus and all the apostle obeyed the laws both before and after the cross. We don't even obey the 10 commandments like we claim.
Sabbath: Ex 20:8-11
Deut 5:12-15
Acts 13:14-15
16:13
17:2
18:4
I see boundries for Sabbath observance but not for Sunday worship.
You said, "The emergent church is going the way of Jeroboam and providing practices for Christians that have more in common with pagan cultures than with the bible." Sun worship, Ishtar, feritlity rites(eggs, bunnies), decorated trees, winter solstice: the list goes on.
Are we willing to practice what we preach??
Maybe we need to go back and look at how we interpret various scriptures.
Jesus said, "Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets; I have come not to abolish them, but to fulfill them." This word fulfill means to fill full of meaning. Jesus proceeded to do just that-"You have heard it said...but I say.."
How are we different from the world, ARE we any different than the world?
How do we define obedience, holiness, sanctification, repentance?
Do we make it up on our own, or do we look to scripture to define what these are? Click here to reply to this post
Re: Re: The Emergent Church -- Theological Sons of Jeroboam
Posted On: 03/07/06 08:13:04 PM
Age 45, MT
Their is a difference between worshipping God in the way that we desire and decorating with a Christmas tree or eggs, etc. Decorations are not worship. I don't worship God with trees, I decorate. Worshipping God is in Spirit and truth. The Emergent church seems to be more interested in in worshipping in feelings of the flesh. That is not worship as worship is in Spirit. The Apostle Paul says we are to crucify our flesh, not think we can worship with flesh. God sees our flesh as filthy rags. Nor can we take pagan, occultic worship and use it for worship to God. He calls that an abomination, and deserves death by stoning by Old Covenant standards.
A good study on this subject is Watchman Nee's, Spiritual Man if any are interested in the differences in flesh and spirit worship. Click here to reply to this post
Re: Re: Re: The Emergent Church -- Theological Sons of Jeroboam
Posted On: 03/08/06 12:10:53 PM
Age 50, IL
Jeremiah 10:1-6 ..do not learn the ways of the nations..for the customs of the people are worthless; they cut a tree out of the forest, and a craftsman shapes it with his chisel. They adorn it with silver and gold, they fasten it with hammer and nails so it will not totter....
Romans 12:1-2 Therefore I urge you brother, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God-this is your spiritual act of worship. Do not conform any longer to the bpattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is-his good, pleasing, and perfect will. Click here to reply to this post
Re: The Emergent Church -- Theological Sons of Jeroboam
Posted On: 03/07/06 10:09:06 AM
Age 30, CA
I am not necessarily a fan of emergent church fads, but I understand and sympathize with the desire to worship God in spirit and truth apart from culturally established (read man-made) norms. I can't say I know Pagitt well enough to agree or disagree with him, but as presented here, even unsympathetically, his position seems to be one of allowing God to determine what any boundaries are and not presuming to use falsely constructed dichotomies or logical fallacies to dictate where God is or isn't. DeWaay's insistence that he can clearly tell God where to stand smacks more of arrogance and idolatry than an appropriate fear of the Lord.
Remember how confident and seemingly "right" Job's advisors were and what God had to say to them before you pretend God can logically be placed in a cultural bag of tricks. Click here to reply to this post
Re: Re: The Emergent Church -- Theological Sons of Jeroboam
Posted On: 03/07/06 02:03:26 PM
Age 38, PA
Although I think the author oversimpifies the 'emergent church' as only thos ewho claim to be so (they aren't like a denomination), his point on boundaries is well done. There are clear boundaries in Scripture such as not communicating with the dead or spirits ('saints' and except his Spirit respectively), yoga (a religous ritual and is pushed as such only under the New Agr motiff or wellness motiff), as well as many others. Yes, I agree wholeheartedly that there are many practices that are culturally based and are flexible (as long as they line up with Scripture) so we can utilize them. Many are not. We must look to clear texts in Scripture as our guide and also to help interpret the less clear texts in Scripture. Either the Bible is inerrant (by the Chicago Statment)and our translations are true to the texts or they are not. If God is not the God of order and is honest, we will never know what truth is. If we believe that God doesn't lie or ive contradictory teachings to us, our job is to find clarity of what is there, not muddy the clear waters to match the mud of society.
Jim Click here to reply to this post
Re: The Emergent Church -- Theological Sons of Jeroboam
Posted On: 03/07/06 07:19:31 AM
Age 35, IA
Why was the issue of the inerrancy of Scripture only mentioned in mere passing. The statement at the end of the article was rather bold, as it was not mentioned anywhere else previously. I have never heard any emergent person question scripture in the way you mention. Click here to reply to this post
Re: The Emergent Church -- Theological Sons of Jeroboam
Posted On: 03/07/06 07:18:34 AM
Age 56, TN
It would seem that those in the Emergent Church, as in the past, forget where we start with the Christian life. It is in Christ, as He is revealed in the Word, the Bible. Jesus did say that there will be those who cry out to Him and say "didn't we do such and such in your name" and he will say "I never knew you." He also said that "if you love me, you will keep my commandments." Not "start something new that I never told you to start." Click here to reply to this post
Re: The Emergent Church -- Theological Sons of Jeroboam
Posted On: 03/03/06 11:16:42 AM
Age 51, VA
Normally a host of individuals who are simpathetic to the Emergent Church movement write in to counter any articles that are critical of this movement. The direct parallel between the worship style of Jeroboam and this movement has been silencing Click here to reply to this post
Re: The Emergent Church -- Theological Sons of Jeroboam
Posted On: 03/01/06 09:59:35 PM
Age 30, MN
Bob, I was at your debate and I want to thank you for taking your bold stand. You clearly pointed out the difference between a Christianity founded on the timeless, objective truths of God and a pseudo-Christianity that floats on the waves of personal subjectivity. Keep up the good work. Click here to reply to this post
