Alcoholics Anonymous Cofounders Were Not Christians
Posted: 05/20/2008
Alcoholics Anonymous Cofounders Were Not Christians
It is a fearful thing, leaving AA. The Big Book (the AA “bible”) states, “We thought we could find an easier, softer way. But we could not.”[1] Because this passage of AA “scripture” is taken literally, alcoholics rarely look elsewhere for help. Christians continue to jam their God, the Ancient of Days, into AA’s chameleon theology.
“Do not participate in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead even expose them.” (Ephesians 5:11-12)
It is not just fear that keeps us bound to this all-gods religion. The 12 Step experience becomes an idol—long-term involvement almost always results in a transference of faith. Bluntly stated, when it comes to sobriety, many Christians end up with more faith in the power of the 12 Step program than in Jesus Christ.
This idol worship is by no means limited to those in AA, but applies to many in “Christian 12 Step” groups.
This transference of faith is subtle, gradual, and frequently inevitable. The result is that sobriety without the 12 Step program will not even be considered. Biblical wisdom, given by concerned and caring believers, is rejected.
For many years Christians have justified their involvement by pointing to numerous books that claim AA and the 12 Steps are Christian in origin. If this is true, then obviously AA’s cofounders had to have been Christians. Indeed, this belief is also a primary rationalization for remaining in the AA religion.
Did AA cofounders Bill Wilson and Dr. Bob Smith follow Christ? Many believe Dr. Bob to have been a student of the Word and dedicated to the Faith. To a great degree this assumption stems from the writing of Dick B., author of ‘Anne Smith’s Journal,’ and numerous other works.
Dr. Bob certainly did read the Bible. Yet, as Susan Cheever states, “Bob began every morning with meditation and prayer and twenty minutes of Bible study. Like Bill, Bob believed in paranormal possibility and the two men spent time ‘spooking,’ invoking spirits of the dead.”[2]
Early AA member Tom Powers saw the AA cofounders firsthand as they engaged in spiritualistic practices the Lord detests. (Deuteronomy 18:10-12) “Now, these people, Bill and Bob, believed vigorously and aggressively. They were working away at the spiritualism; it was not just a hobby.”[3]
It is not well known that Dr. Bob was a Mason. Suspended in 1934, he gained reinstatement after being sober for some years.[4] According to John Weldon, “The truth is that Masonry is a distinct religion that espouses teachings incompatible with Christian faith in the areas of God, salvation, and other important doctrines.”[5]
Interestingly, the description of the Mason god, the Great Architect, is similar to the higher power worshiped in Alcoholics Anonymous. Masonic researcher Carl H. Claudy notes, “Masonry does not specify any god or creed; she requires merely that you believe in some Deity, give him what name you will…. A belief in God is essential to a Mason but…any God will do…”[6]
Alcoholics Anonymous teaches the “higher power” could be a doorknob, a spirit, a fruit salad, the universe, the Dallas Cowboys (when they are winning), a new age version of Jesus, or anything else. Like the Masons, it doesn’t matter what god you believe in—only that you believe in something.
It seems that someone as allegedly devout and well versed in the Bible as Dr. Bob would stay far away from spiritualism and the Masonic organization. He most emphatically did not. Equally perplexing is Dr. Bob’s enthusiasm for Emmet Fox’s sweet-sounding but heretical book, ‘The Sermon on the Mount.’[7]
This is no minor point, since this book denies that Jesus Christ is Savior. The book was used as a teaching tool by Alcoholics Anonymous before the Big Book was written. In ‘The Sermon on the Mount,’ author Emmet Fox states there is no such thing as original sin; that the account of Adam and Eve and the Garden of Eden is not intended as literal history; that Jesus never walked on the water. He writes, “The ‘Plan of Salvation’ which figured so prominently in the evangelical sermons of a past generation is as completely unknown to the Bible as it is to the Koran.”[8]
Fox instructs, “In the Bible the term ‘Christ’ is not identical with Jesus, the individual. It is a technical term that may be briefly defined as the Absolute Spiritual Truth about anything.”[9] Clearly Emmet Fox, dead for decades, would have made an ideal guest on one of Oprah Winfrey’s New Spirituality shows.
Fox was an eloquent adherent of the New Thought religion. This belief system teaches that our thoughts determine our reality, and that we too can learn to tap into the same divine power that Jesus the man harnessed.
As scholars Anderson and Whitehouse note, “New Thoughters are fond of such affirmations as… ‘The Christ in me salutes the Christ in you.’ Rather than viewing Jesus as the first and last member of the Christ family, many New Thoughters believe that Christ is a title that we can all earn by following Jesus’ example.”[10]
‘The Sermon on the Mount’ is based on Fox’s heretical interpretation of Scripture. So why would Bible-believing Christians have anything to do with such a book? Would a Christian cofounder of AA really participate in using it as a teaching tool? Or place such heresy in the hands of another alcoholic? AA cofounder Dr. Bob Smith did just this.
In a recorded 1954 interview, early AA member Dorothy S.M. reminisced, “The first thing Bob did was get me Emmet Fox’s‘Sermon on the Mount.’”[11] Dorothy then recalled how it went with the alcoholics who wanted help: “As soon as the men in the hospital, as soon as their eyes could focus, they got to ‘The Sermon on the Mount.’”[12]
Archie T., the founder of Detroit AA, stayed with Dr. Bob and Anne Smith for more than ten months. He became sober in September of 1938. Archie T. recollected, “In Akron I was turned over to Dr. Bob and his wife. …I spent Labor Day in the hospital reading Emmet Fox’s ‘Sermon on the Mount,’ and it changed my life.”[13]
Documenting the AA history of Archie T., Detroit Archivist Cliff M. verifies, “He says he got his AA direct from one of the founders. Archie read Emmet Fox’s ‘Sermon on the Mount,’ and he said it changed his life.”[14]
It is interesting that, after many months with the Smiths, having “got his AA direct from one of the founders,” Archie T. emerged not as a Bible believing Christian, but in agreement with Emmet Fox’s New Thought theology.
Was Dr. Bob a Bible believing Christian? The Bible says, “Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world.” (1 John 4:1-3)
Some have tried to explain early AA’s enthusiasm for various New Thought books simply because the people were, well, voracious readers. But Emmet Fox’s ‘The Sermon on the Mount’ was used to teach.
People who believe along New Thought lines often read genuinely Christian literature, as well as the Bible. They simply filter, or interpret, according to their New Thought understanding. Emmet Fox himself had no objection to his followers reading diverse spiritual books, or attending churches, or listening to speakers if it proved helpful. He warned, however, that loyalty should be to one’s own “Indwelling Christ.”[15]
This theological “filtering” may well be what Dr. Bob himself did as he read the Bible and Christian literature. Like Emmet Fox and others, Dr. Bob may simply have interpreted the Bible through a New Thought understanding, or variant thereof. Fox valued the Bible, calling it “an inexhaustible reservoir of Spiritual Truth.”[16] Dr. Bob valued it as well.
Such esoteric interpretation of the Bible—while denying the Salvation of Christ—is not confined to New Thought; it is practiced by Unity, and the Swedenborgians, each with their own anti-Biblical understanding of the Word of God.
Dr. Bob’s pursuit of spiritualism, Masonic membership, and promotion of Fox’s heretical book do not seem indicative of a deep, Bible-believing faith. Certainly he spoke highly of the Bible. But a New Thoughter who gives Jesus verbal accolades or discusses Scripture can sound quite similar to a born again Christian.
After reading the Emmet Fox book, I emailed the following question to Mel B., author of the well-researched ‘New Wine.’ Mel B. is an authority on Emmet Fox and a man who personally knew Bill Wilson:
“Hey Mel, I’ve been reading Fox’s ‘The Sermon on the Mount’ and what he is saying (I think) was that Jesus is just a man who understood the principle laid out in the book and had power through them. He says “Christ” is not Jesus but a title (for Absolute Spiritual Truth.) So I am inclined to think that Dr. Bob, both when he referred to the Bible, and when he spoke of Jesus, saw things along the lines of what Fox taught. Do you think this is possible?”[17]
Mel emailed this reply:
“Hi John, Yes, I think Dr. Bob thought that way about Jesus. Bill certainly did. In my view, this takes nothing away from Jesus and makes his teaching more relevant. Dr. Bob also emphasized The Sermon On The Mount, 1 Corinthians 13, and the Book of James as being particularly important to us.”[18]
Important as general spiritual principles, perhaps, but not as words from the God of the Bible.
Author Glen C. notes that Dr. Bob’s AA homegroup (roughly between 1939-1940) emphasized the following passages in the Bible: ‘Sermon on the Mount’ (Matthew 5-7), the letter of James, 1 Corinthians 13, and Psalms 23 and 91. These “were especially useful for AA purposes because none of them required the newcomer to believe in the divinity of Christ or that Salvation could be found only by praying to Jesus.”[19] (Emphasis mine)
Some years ago Dick B., after convincing thousands that AA’s 12 Steps are Christian in origin, wrote, “You may, as I did for quite some time, fail to appreciate or study the effect on AA ‘theology’ of the ideas of William James, Ralph Waldo Trine, Emmet Fox, and others.”[20]
Having admitted Emmet Fox’s heretical influence, this author should not have written one more book about AA’s alleged Christian origin.
Dick B.’s latest book is ‘The Conversion of Bill W.,’ a sadly misleading title considering everything AA cofounder Bill Wilson was involved in. In experiments in the 1950s, hoping alcoholics could be helped by LSD, Bill Wilson stated, “It is a generally acknowledged fact in spiritual development that ego reduction makes the influx of God’s grace possible. If, therefore, under LSD we can have a temporary reduction, so we can better see where we are going—well, that might be of some help. The goal might become clearer.”[21]
Call me legalistic, but LSD to facilitate “the influx of God’s grace” doesn’t sound all that Biblical.
Wilson’s explanation for choosing the triangle within the circle as AA’s symbol is equally pagan. In ‘Alcoholics Anonymous Comes Of Age,’ he writes, “That we have chosen this symbol is perhaps no mere accident. The priests and seers of antiquity regarded the circle enclosing the triangle as a means of warding off spirits of evil, and AA’s circle of Recovery, Unity, and Service has certainly meant all that to us and much more.”[22]
He also “felt it would be unwise to have an allegiance to any one religious sect. He felt AA’s usefulness was worldwide, and contained spiritual principles that members of any and every religion could accept, including the Eastern religions.”[23]
Somewhere, somehow, we must examine the 12 Step program in light of Scripture. We must take Paul’s admonitions about a false gospel seriously. (Galatians 1:6-9) We are being offered a wonderful mission field, if only we can understand neither AA nor the 12 Steps are from Jesus Christ.
It is also time we stop accepting that one or both AA cofounders were Christians. Clearly, they were not.
Endnotes:
1. Alcoholics Anonymous, Third Edition, pg. 58
2. Susan Cheever, My Name Is Bill, pg. 197
3. PASS IT ON, A.A. World Services Inc., pg. 280
4. Cedric L. Smith, PGM, Grand Secretary of Masons in Vermont
5. John Weldon, The Masonic Lodge and the Christian Conscience, CRI DM 166, pg. 1
6. Carl H. Claudy, ‘Belief in God,’ in ‘A Master’s Wages’ in Little Masonic Library vol.4
7. DR. BOB and the Good Oldtimers, A.A. World Services Inc., pg. 310-311
8. Emmet Fox, The Sermon on the Mount, pg. 5-6
9. Ibid., pg. 124
10. C. Alan Anderson and Deborah G. Whitehead, New Thought and Conventional Christianity www.gis.net/~caa/church.html
11. 1954 excerpts of conversation between Bill W. and Dorothy S.M. www.alcoholics-anonymous.org/en-pdfs/f-151_markings_spring_06.pdf
12. Ibid.
13. www.Akronaaarchives.org/archieT.htm
14. AA General Services of Southeast Michigan-Area 33, A Brief History of A.A. in Detroit-by Cliff M. (Past Archivist)
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Unfortunately all the core members who had a hand in starting AA meetings did, without exception, dabble in magic. This tradition is the reason so many people who attend AA today are more inclined to nervous breakdowns than the man in the street.
The 'magical' roots of AA remain concealed but more is emerging each year that was hitherto unknown about its progenitors devotion to the occult. One tragic aspect is most people who attend AA will, from time to time, sense all is not well but through the teaching of AA are encouraged to lay the blame for these disquieting feelings at the door of their inner-self.
Controversial, I know , but so true all the same. Click here to reply to this post
Just the facts, Mam. Read before you write
Posted On: 09/14/08 10:19:32 PM
Age 83, HI
Many of the author's continued remarks about AAs, A.A., its cofounders, and Christianity ought viewed in light of the facts in The Conversion of Bill W. ISBN 1885803907 and Dr. Bob of Alcoholics Anonymous ISBN 1885803850 Click here to reply to this post
Alcoholics Anonymous Cofounders Were . . . Christians
Posted On: 07/04/08 05:15:30 AM
Age 53, HI
John,
Thank you for mentioning Dick B. and three of the more than 30 titles he has written--Anne Smith's Journal, 1933-1939, The Oxford Group and Alcoholics Anonymous, and The Conversion of Bill W.--in conjunction with his 18 years of research and writing about the role of the CREATOR of the heavens and the earth, of His Son Jesus Christ, and of the Bible in early Alcoholics Anonymous.
The Son of GOD, Jesus Christ, stated in John 3:16, 17: "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved." (KJV)
Rom 10:9, 10 states: "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." (KJV)
And Eph 1:13, 14 states: "In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory." (KJV)
It would appear that among the logical claims you are making in your article are the following:
(1a) Emmet Fox's book, The Sermon on the Mount, played a role in early A.A.; (1b) some of Emmet Fox's views were non-Christian and/or heretical; (1c) if non-Christian and/or heretical views influence a person or organization, that person or organization must not be "Christian"; and therefore (1d) early A.A. could not have been "Christian."
(2a) a child of GOD would not sin--e.g., by being involved with spiritualism; (2b) Bill and Bob were involved in spiritualism; and therefore (2c) Neither Bill nor Bob could have been children of GOD.
The book of Romans is addressed to "all that be in Rome . . . called [to be] saints" (Rom 1:7a, KJV)
Rom 12:2 states: "And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God." (KJV)
When a human being chooses to become a child of GOD via the new birth (salvation, conversion, receiving eternal life--cp. John 3:16, 17; Rom 10:9, 10), that person must then choose to renew their mind, thought-by-thought (cp. Rom 12:2). Holy Spirit sealed within a child of GOD (cp. Eph 1:13, 14) does not force that person to never sin again.
Dick B.'s title, The Conversion of Bill W., presents extensive documentation indicating that Bill became a child of GOD between the time he went to Calvary Rescue Mission and the time he completed his most eventful stay in Towns Hospital. Have you read that book?
By the way, Dick B.'s most recent title is actually Dr. Bob of Alcoholics Anonymous: His Excellent Training in the Good Book As a Youngster in Vermont. It presents, in more than 350 pages the evidence for Dr. Bob's having become a child of GOD in his youth.
Your readers may get more information about the evidence that Bill W. and Dr. Bob were children of GOD on Dick B.'s web site.
In GOD's love, Ken Burns Click here to reply to this post
THE CHURCH HAS FAILED ALCOHOLICS
Posted On: 05/30/08 02:41:56 PM
Age 64, OH
John, you are attacking AA for not leading people to Jesus Christ who is The One and Only True God Almighty. Of course Jesus is The Answer, but are we to tear down AA that does try to help these poor alcoholics. You have criticized AA but where is your criticism of the church that ignored these people in the first place. These men will not go to church because they have been there before, only to be looked down upon. They are judged by people who have never been in their shoes. Most of the churches I have been in, I can not stand to go back to, and I am not an alcoholic. The pews are filled with people who USED TO BE SINNERS, BUT ARE NOW RIGHTEOUS. It was at the end of Paul's life that he said, "Of sinners I am chief". This is why Paul could help alcoholics or any other sinner, because he was one. You do not need to be an alcoholic to help one, but you do need to be one of them, that is a sinner just like they are. I would not tear down AA until I had been called of God, and built with the grace of God, a replacement for AA. Build a better AA and The Holy Spirit will send alcoholics to you. If you are not willing to do this then I think you should be careful in what you work to tear down. Grace and peace to you. Lou Click here to reply to this post
Does it matter what AA is?
Posted On: 11/23/08 01:28:34 AM
Age 53, CA
My name is JB and I am a believer in JESUS CHRIST who has been FREED from 30 years of BONDAGE to sin ...
through a Christian program which, yes, has 12 steps!
There is only ONE step and that is Jesus Christ ...
however - how do we learn to walk w/Christ? We have to recognize w/out Him we can do nothing; to realize our desperate need for Him; to be humble, to forgive, to let go of old thinking we grew up to believe was true and causes us to believe that's who we are today.
Today we are born again - we are loved by God the Father who sent His Son to die for our sins because HE LOVES US ...
So - through a "discicpleship" program of 12 steps ... I am now FREE from bondage to serve the Lord.
I serve in a program called Celebrate Recovery and for me, AA and the founders of AA And what they (or anyone else) believes really doesn't have anything to do with my
walk with Christ. It has NOTHING to do with their 12 step program.
We could make our 'dsicipleship' program 9 'steps' or 5 or whatever. It's not the steps by it's other believers seeing another believer struggling with the bondage of sin and can't seem to get out --
especially at church where everyone seems to be "fine". Celebrate Recovery was where I found out I was OK, that I wasn't alone and eventually realized how much GOD loves me.
And - I realized it because of God's Word and the love of God's people.
God bless. Click here to reply to this post
A better AA
Posted On: 06/10/08 08:24:09 AM
Age 39, MD
I am the wife of an alcoholic, and saw first hand the ineffectiveness of the church in helping an alcoholic get sober. He has not been drinking for almost 11 years, but the church did not help him. He is a member of AA, but unfortunately his life as a Christian is lukewarm.
But I want to tell you that there IS a better AA and the Holy Spirit is sending alcoholics to this program, along with drug addicts, sex addicts, the emotionally, physically or sexually abused, and anyone who has a hurt, habit or hangup that prevents them from being free in Christ. I am being called by God to serve in this program as a grateful believer who struggles with depression, co-dependency and food addiction. The name of the program is Celebrate Recovery. They have a web page and are all over the country. Click here to reply to this post
No longer an alcoholic
Posted On: 05/27/08 10:10:49 AM
Age 54, OR
You are right--I am not an alcoholic. Not any longer. I have been freed through Jesus Christ. I believe most in AA and "!2 Step" Christian programs do worship the 12 Steps, although most would certainly be surprised to be confronted with this.
AA and the 12 Steps tend to become idols. In the Bible the Lord warned Solomon about his foreign wives and their strange gods. What happened? Solomon, the wisest man in the world, also began to worship those gods.
So it is all too often with people in AA. The Bible is secondary to the Big Book, Christ is simply a part of the 12 Step religious process.
I praise the Lord you are sober. I understand it is not enjoyable to have one's religion criticized. I do know what it is like to be in bondage to alcohol and heroin and other sins. But Christ freed me.
The Body of Christ needs to learn the truth about AA and the 12 Steps--they are not of God--and then we can move forward. Then He, the Ancient of Days, will show us what He wants us to do. Click here to reply to this post
Assumptions Assumptions???? Part 2
Posted On: 05/28/08 03:59:37 PM
Age 38, CA
What a perfect mission field. Several desperate people swearing by something that they swear they know. Then knowledgable missionaries can come along and say, hey that's great, but you missed the most important part, if you don't get a personal relationship with Christ those people said it will not work. I'm sorry all of your previous effort went to waste on your doorknob, but if you really want life and want it more abundantly I can help you transition from that stuff to what you are supposed to be doing.
To use catchy little buzzwords like "your religion AA" etc. demonstrates the sort of religiosity and superiority complexes that immediately turns off most of the people I work with. Especially when God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble.
Is it truly humble to approach a down preson with the message of "what you are doing is all messed up, or the message of hey that stuff you got started off right but got all jacked up. I think I can show you where it is a little different from what you understand it to be and take you to the real source of all of that if you like.
In Christ
Alethinos P. Click here to reply to this post
Again What????
Posted On: 05/27/08 03:30:48 PM
Age 30, MN
I guess you didn't read my posts???? My religion is christianity, are you critizising christainity??? I thought you were a christain???? Again in another post I said I read the bible 45 minutes every morning. I read the big book one time through like a regular book and that was the end of it, and I'll say this one more time and I'm done. I And know one I attend AA with worships the twelve steps or makes AA a religion, you are WAY off base by saying that because you are generalizing which is always a bad thing to do. We get together once a week and talk about our lives and sobriety there is absolutely nothing wrong with that, and we do discuss God and prayer. Every week we assemble a prayer list for everyone. So we can pray for the members who need a little extra help because they maybe having a rough time. You are making a lot of generalizing and judgemental statements and I don't understand that? It sounds to me like you had some bad excperiences with AA and I'm sorry for that, but it works for a lot of people and it is a god centered organazation and no matter how many books are written that won't chanege that. God bless AA!!!! Click here to reply to this post
AA Hoax
Posted On: 05/22/08 06:16:19 PM
Age 49, IL
IF AA works, why do people keep having to go back, over and over again? Why do they cling to their coffee and their ritualistic 'healing'? It really is sad, these AA meetings keep people coming back again and again, and most I know either trade alcohol for pills, or other drugs. So they just give up one addiction for another, and like robots, keep going to something that does not work. "If the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed"-John 8:36. We, as sinners, do not have power over sin, certainly man-made programs offer no permanent cure. Only Christ can set us free from our bondage to sin. When we choose to drink, we risk becoming addicted. Sadly, many have fallen prey to this enticing way of life. Millions are spent in advertising, making alcohol glamorous, fun, popular. But, they refuse to advertise the flip side, the poor soul who has now become addicted, lost his/her job, family, home, etc. Their health is deteriorating, their mind is going as well. How can a 12 step program which simply repeats itself {somewhat like brainwashing} at every meeting possibly set the addict free? Not to mention, it isn't empowered by the Most High God, but by whatever your god of choice may be; a toaster, a sycamore tree, anything you name will do.
For anyone who struggles with addiction and is sick and tired of it, please...cry out to God, admit you have sinned against Him and repent, turn away from your sins. Surrender to the authority of Jesus Christ in your life, and indeed, you will be free at last! Click here to reply to this post
Assumptions Assumptions???? Part 1
Posted On: 05/28/08 03:58:11 PM
Age 38, CA
Very Funny - the religion thing I mean. I suppose I'll take the bait.
I also suppose you are making an assumption for a reading audience that is an assumption, that I base my whole life on AA or 12 Steps.
So I take it that the fact that I am a Christian man, with a college education in theology, and who has worked in the inner cities of this country with thousands of people in recovery (amongst other problems) who has used AA methods, Celebrate recovery methods, and other methods to help people (sometimes no 12 step or AA information at all if not needed) has no bearing on the conversation.
Also as a person who has been on staff at 2 large churches and has counseled many people who were victims of church abuse (including people who tried to get recovery in churches where people told them that the reason they were not getting better in the different churcheds they were attending was a lack of faith or not enough praying etc.) and managed to help these people find lasting sobriety might have a bearing.
In otherwords you keep sterotyping the people in AA by your experience and what many people experience. That is like saying that all pastors are child molesters, cheaters, or liers because there is so much media coverage about the ones who are.
The fact that I am able to bear witnes to errors in the common flawed reasoning (THE IDEA THAT BECAUSE A BUNCH OF PEOPLE WHO SAY THEY UNDERSTAND SOMETHING DO SOMETHING THAT IS CLEARLY CRAZY) and that I actually studied the history from an perspective of not making the decision before I researched meanS that the difference between me and you is: if I see parson with an AA background, I can say "Hey, you have that all wrong, If you don't get a deep personal relationship with Christ it will not work. Here let me show you in the book you have."
Your only possible response is, "Hey, what you have is evil, I got better by Christ."
The funny part is that probably 60-70% of the people I work with have long term church backgrounds and are actually spiritual people, but still have chemical dependency.
---------------------------------------
I suppose the fact that one person can get better with little help means that all should be able to get better the same way. An altar experience and a sudden loss of desire to ever use again. That does happen IN EXTREMELY RARE CASES! If that were the norm there would be recovery meetings in churches that look like Benn Hinn or something like that. People would come to the miracle recovery healers and get the magic fairy dust blown on them.
There needs to be a mentoring process and a process of change. a James 4 washing of hands and cleansing of the heart that will give one God's perspective. Seeing the world from such a perspective and realizing how much has to be changed makes one hopeless and miserable. The joy and laughter will be turned weeping and mourning and a certain feeling of hopelessness. But once a person is humbled in this manner, (broken down to his or her knees so to speak) that person is in the correct position to rely totally upon God and have God lift him or her up.
The 12 steps started as one man's attempt to describe the discipleship program used by the Oxford group (before he came along). This is by no means the only method of discipleship and I definately agree that what is taking place in many if not most AA meetings is absolute stupidity relative to the Bible and their own literature that assumed you were reading the Bible. (We realize we know oonly a little. God will have to disclose more to you and to us... ALcoholics Anonymous Book pg 164 - last page of the program)
A key thing to realize is that Bill Wilson and Dr. Robert Smith did not make up anything. They just took what already existed in Oxford Movement doctrine and tried to focus it on alcoholism.
It was much later that all the crazy stuff that is sterotypical of AA today came into the picture.
END Part 1 Click here to reply to this post
Flawed Logic
Posted On: 05/27/08 11:49:17 AM
Age 38, CA
If you use the same logic as the first statement in this post you prove that Church Does not work. If Church works, Why do people have to keep going back. The rest of the logic is flawed too. If there are mainstream churches like Jehovahs Witnesses, and LDS, that call themselves churches, then anything that calls itself a church must be evil. After all, there is made up books, and multiple gods, and multiple wives, and forcing little girls to marry old men. What kind of thing is this "church" place anyway.
This is the hazzard of being alarmist. Just becasue you view something and you associated as the whole experience does not make that the facts. SImply because some people who claim to be experts say that is how something is (like the leadership of the aforementioned churches) does not mean that is how the entity (be it AA or church) is supposed to be.
Is it correct to say the church as a whole is evil or that the churches that I have seen where there are clear errors in understanding are flawed? Click here to reply to this post
A Little Bit of Information is a Dangerous Thing!
Posted On: 05/22/08 05:30:51 PM
Age 38, CA
The Oxford Group Movement, of which the original A.A. movement was a part (the title Alcoholics Anonymous began with the writing of the book years after the movement started) was a christian fellowship, with some ideas that were outide of the mainstreamof the time.
The focus of the Oxford Groups was small home groups that studied the bible and discussed it. These types of groups were outside of the norm for that era, but not for the current times with similar movements such as th G12 movements (which have produced some of the largest churches in the history of mankind), Church planting Movements (known as CPM movements), the House Church Movement, and many others.
Whatever we try to say we think their God was, the God that was discussed at the early meetings (at a man named T Henry's house) was the one found in the Bible. If you were to go to Akron Ohio today to visit AA group #1 (which was really an OXford group meeting til many years after it started) you can still see the bible that was used in the meetings to open and to read the passage of scripture that was to be discussed that day.
The devotionals (like the Daily Bread) that were required reading for all of the people working with Dr. Bob Smith (one of the founding members) are extremely Christian and many of them are still read by Christians today.
In the AA book many of the direct statements about God are still there just ignored by those who for some reason do not want to hear it (some for AA and some against AA)
the seconfd word on page 11 is Christ. on page 99-100 the book tells a person when working with a newcomer to "Remind the prospect that his recovery is not dependent upon poeple. It is dependent upon his relationship to God." page 68 says "...we are now on a different basis; the basis of trusting and relying upon God. We trust infinate God rather than our finite selves." the same page also says "We never apologize to anyone for depending upon our creator." Dr. Bob himself writes "If you think you are an atheist, an agnostic, a sceptic, or have any other form of intellectual pride which keeps you from accepting what is in this book, I feel sorry for you." The truth is that Dr. Bob was opposed to the writing of a book to begin with as his group (now called AA group #1) though that the Bible was book enough. The only reason he agreed was because he thought the recovery information could not remain consistant and people would go back to being abused by their current congregations that did not know how to work with alcoholics.
My point in saying all of this is to say that if the totality of ones research is in literature that is opposed to something to begin with you will end up with an erroneous understanding of whatever you are researching. Please understand, that what I have seen in many meetings is nothing like what was done in the 1930's and is all that is described above. The same logic could be applied to messed up churches. If someone encounters a messed up church or see a pastor fall publically should that person get on the internet and say that Christianity is evil. If you do a search right now many people have done the exact same thing to be anti Christian.
I appreciate the concern and the desire to help those you perceive to be misled with this article, but the information is innacurate and is just what gives unbelievers ammunition to say all Christians are liars. I would simply ask that you start by doing more research but without preconceived notions. And yes, many meetings are cult like and do some crazy things that make no sense at all, I simply don;'t go there just like many churches are cult like and do crazy things, I don't go there either
Thank you for your time and for allo2wing me to share:
Alethinos Paradoxos,
Member, Foundation Principles AA Click here to reply to this post
AA a spiritual mix
Posted On: 05/23/08 10:29:41 AM
Age 54, OR
I appreciate the thoughtful reply. AA is like a pie--many want to believe it is, say, a lemon meringue pie because those ingredients went into it. People often point to the Oxford Group and Anne Smiths Quiet Time/Prayer as Christian roots of AA.
But Anne was participating in seances with Bill Wilson and Dr. Bob (this is in PASS IT ON)and this raises questions, at least for me, as to who or what she was listening to in Quiet Time. Like Bill and Dr. Bob, she was a caring person who dedicated her life to hurting alcoholics.
The Oxford Group had many critics who saw it as works-based rather than Biblical.
It is totally unfair to hurting alcoholics to tell them AA is Christian in origin. The Oxford Group, Quiet Time and other factors are in the pie mix with spiritualism, New Thought, Carl Jung, William James, Swedenborg, and more.
If you make a lemon meringue pie and also include ingredients such as tar, mud, rat poison, and sand, is it really a lemon meringue pie?
What we have today are folks who write about the lemon meringue ingredients and discount the harmful stuff in the mix.
We must separate from this thing. 2 Corinthians 6:14-17. We can. Alcoholics and addicts can gain Salvation and freedom. Click here to reply to this post
What???
Posted On: 05/27/08 10:08:26 AM
Age 38, CA
This seance thing seems to have very limited support historically relative to the massive amounts of support for the Biblical roots and church roots of A.A. or even deeper biblical roots of the Oxford Movement. The fact that some members may have screwed it up or watered it down over time does not make the facts any less so.
If that were the case a person like Reverend Wright would totally disprove anything the Bible has to say as the fact that one or two people somehow disprove the whole thing. Even deeper there are lots of people who feel the same way in churches several times a week and all day on Sunday (more than most of us). Since there is lots of people in church who have the message messed up and whole churches that have the whole thing messed up does that mean the idea of a church is not Biblical???? By this sort of reasoning that would be the truth following the saem sort of reasoning!!!! The truth is that most of not all movements tend to drift toward degredation over time and generations. when the drift becomes too much, there often arizes a grass roots movement that attempts to bring the whole thing back to it's original intended state. Often the result is sepreate movements that have some similarities but in many ways are directly opposed to one another (thus so many denominations). There are many such movements, but several are by invitation only (due to the depth of the evil desires of some in the modern version of AA to keep it the way it is) and some are simply a small voice in the noise of those doing whatever they want to do.
But, I suppose in working with the sickest of our society (Alcoholics and drug addicts etc) and being a place where they have come to get better, I would not be in the right place if there were not people in various stages of getting better (some still crazy as can be) the problem comes when there is no limitation on how crazy you can be and take on leadership. At this point in time much of the overall leadership of what callls itself A.A. is a group of people that by the original standards would be considered stilll crazy and definately not Godly. It's like if all you saw on TV were Reverend Wrights and everyone started assuming that all things church and all things Biblical were reflected by these people!!!!!! Click here to reply to this post
Awesome
Posted On: 05/23/08 07:00:33 AM
Age 30, MN
You nailed it. I see these people and their posts and I would bet none of them have even been to a meeting or picked up the big book. Thank you for setting the record straight about the AA you and I obviously know. Click here to reply to this post
AA is not Christian
Posted On: 05/22/08 11:17:15 AM
Age 43, WI
Christians should stay away from AA. While I could go on with many reasons, the main thing is they don't teach the complete and total healing of Christ. I had to go and it was sad, the meetings start: my name is __ and I am an alchoholic. Christ heals and delivers completely from ALL sin and bondage, there is one step and that is Christ. No bondage to 12 steps, no "I'm kind of healed". No, Christ and Christ alone heals and delivers, totally and from all. Click here to reply to this post
MY NAME IS LOU AND I AM A SINNER
Posted On: 05/23/08 08:27:42 AM
Age 64, OH
Couldn't we start every meeting with "My name is ______ and I am a sinner". It is not the words but what we mean by our words. People can also argue against saying we are sinners. They can say that Jesus cleansed us and forgave us of all sin and took away all power of sin in our life. They could also be correct. But our flesh is still in sin, is it not. I attended an AA meeting once and I agree with you that they do not seem to free but seem to be still in bondage to alcohol. But this could have been meant in a correct way in the start of AA. Just as our churches have strayed from the Truth, this does not make Jesus wrong does it. We must remain humble to see the Truth. Lou Click here to reply to this post
Take 12 steps back and reread the author's point
Posted On: 05/22/08 07:18:16 AM
Age 45, GA
I find too often when someone disagrees with an author's article that often additional information or facts supporting one's disagreement are not offered up, but instead insults are slung, justifications or excuses are made, and emotional reaction wins over proactive logical argument almost every time. My take on the point of the article is simply found in the title. Generally, the founders of AA have been called Christians. Twelve step programs have been embraced by many churches perhaps as a result of this loose understanding. The author disagrees with labeling these men Christian and successfully writes the reasons he believes this. AA's temporal success is not what he focused on although he may question it simply by the fact it has shades of truth without the main catalyst of true change-Christ. The matter at hand was to alert us to be cautious to not call something Christian that is not. If you don't believe in Christ as the Savior from eternal damnation resulting from sin(rejection of God's law)and that conviction doesn't become your "higher power" that you submit to and obey, then it can't be Christian. Call it something else. My husband is a 'recovering' alcoholic with 24 years of sobriety. Shades of truth can have their positive impact. He knew that a "higher power" was nebulous. Considering one's world view, AA can fit into any of them except for maybe atheism. AA may have helped him begin anew here in this world, but it did nothing for his eternal state. Let us not give people a false impression that their higher power can do that. It won't anymore than the church they attend make them a true Christian by God's standards. Fixing the body does not fix the soul without a true knowledge and acceptance that Christ's saving sacrifice is the only truth and allegiance worthy of your focus. I know that first hand. A dry drunk is still controlled very much by his flesh until he submits to Christ. We are in an age where everything is up for redefining and Christian beliefs seem to be in the forefront of redefinition and encompassing all sorts of heresy. I applaud any author that raises concerns about muddled thinking and alerts us to be clearer definers of truth. Now if someone has info. that counters that these two men were not how this author portrays them, then speak up and let's have a productive platform to sharpen our thinking.
Otherwise, let's thank those whose discernment understands that the world view someone holds does matter and when you heal the soul the rest follows. Click here to reply to this post
OA was based on AA
Posted On: 05/22/08 12:34:25 AM
Age 47, IL
Overeater's Anonymous read the "prayer" as "great light bulb grant me the serenity..." I think they meant to believe in the lightbulb on the fridge when you opened it...You were required to believe in something, anything, in order to start your "healing." The leader of the group was an AA fellow who just wanted people to talk to him, but he was really proud of his sinning lifestyle. I remember having watery eyes from his non-filtered cigarettes. I quit that group two meetings after I started it 15 years ago because I felt it was compelling me to overeat to a greater degree. The local hospital sponsored it. Click here to reply to this post
