The presence and ministry of the Holy Spirit is central to living Christianity.Charismatics have emphasized the working of the Holy Spirit in their lives and see His power as what separates them from “dead religion.”It is true that he Holy Spirit must be present and active in the life of a believer, this is the very claim that the Reformers made, especially Luther.The reformers and Charismatics agree on this.However, they disagree on something just as crucial – their understanding of how the Holy Spirit comes and how He is active in the lives of believers.Luther believed the Holy Spirit only comes through the external Word, written and preached.This understanding of how the Holy Spirit exercises His authority in both individuals and the church is where Charismatics have wandered from the foundations of the Reformation.The Reformation was built upon sola scriptura which means “the authority of scripture alone.” More completely, this is the assertion that the Bible as God's written word is:
·self-authenticating,
·clear to the rational reader,
·its own interpreter ("Scripture interprets Scripture"),
·sufficient of itself to be the final authority of Christian doctrine, teaching and guidance.
This concept was the bedrock of the Reformation and the source of the other four solas; sola fide (faith alone), sola gratia (grace alone), solus Christus (Christ alone), soli Deo Gloria (to the glory of God alone).While most Charismatics consider they believe in sola scriptura and have words to that effect in their church statement of faith, in practice they deny it.How?Precisely because of their beliefs describing how the Holy Spirit interacts with their lives and churches.Let us be clear, both the reformers and Charismatics agree that an intellectual understanding of the gospel and simply agreeing that it is true does not make saving faith.In other words, people merely acknowledging the authority of scriptures and the truth of gospel are not necessarily born again nor do they necessarily have the Holy Spirit.Both Luther and Charismatics complain of “dead churches” that are devoid of the Holy Spirit and “anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to Him” (Rom. 8:9). But how does what is dead become alive and active in the Holy Spirit?What are the means of the Holy Spirit’s activity and power?Sola scriptura claims that the means is the scripture, the external Word written and preached. In contrast, Charismatics believe that the means include internal feelings, impressions, and subjective experiences.The pursuit of the Holy Spirit through these Charismatic means is a rejection of sola sciptura and a return to the Catholic paradigm that new internal revelations of men are from the Holy Spirit and have authority.The goal of this article is to show that this conflict is not “new” nor is the Charismatic paradigm the result of some new “outpouring” of the Holy Spirit unique in our time – this error was not even “new” in Luther’s time five hundred years ago.This error was destructive then and the repeat edition continues to harm people today – and the remedy is still the same, sola sciptura.
The Means
The way or mechanism through which we interact with the Holy Spirit is crucial, a key element in understanding sola scriptura.According to John 16:13 when the Holy Spirit comes, “He will guide you into all the truth.”John 14:26 tells us the Holy Spirit will teach us all things. Galatians 5:18, 25 addresses this same concept,” if you are led by the Spirit…If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.” This mechanism of “being guided by,” “being taught by,” being led by,” living by,” and “walking by” the Holy Spirit is the means or way the Holy Spirit carries Christians and rules in their lives – it is how He exerts his authority.Christians who submit to His means exhibit the fruit of His rule in their lives.For Charismatics, the means the Holy Spirit operates in their lives is through internal impressions, feelings, thoughts and “anointings.”The presence of the Holy Spirit is “felt” or perceived internally and His leading sensed subjectively by those seeking to be led by Him.This is seen in a worship service whose goal is to “feel the presence of God” – God being the Holy Spirit (as Jesus is bodily in Heaven with his Father).The Charismatic means are seen in the pursuit of internal “words” or revelations people feel are from the Holy Spirit.It is seen in where someone gives a “personal meaning” to scripture that is pulled from context and the meaning of the original author. It is also seen in prayers inviting the Holy Spirit to come and manifest his presence as an internal feeling or sensation. I am not implying that the goal of this pursuit of the Holy Spirit is bad. In fact, the goal of the Charismatics’ pursuit of the Holy Spirit is a clearer understanding of God’s guidance, will and direction for individuals and the congregation – people seeking God’s answers to their questions and afflictions.They want to exhibit the fruit of the Spirit in their lives and act as the Holy Spirit leads them to accomplish God’s will in their lives and on this earth.But their means are flawed; this pursuit of the Holy Spirit leads to error instead of their goal and delusion instead of truth.
Catholic Mysticism and Charismatic Means
The battle Luther fought was not against a “dead church” with no manifestations of the spiritual – some dry hierarchy of church government denying the supernatural. Luther’s battle was about spiritual revelations and the means the Holy Spirit ruled His church.It obviously had much to do with the papacy, as seen below.The reason the reformers fought the papacy was that this system looked to their own revelations as having authority along with scriptures.They claimed the Holy Spirit directly inspired their leader and his claims. Luther states:
The papacy, too, is nothing but enthusiasm, for the pope boasts that “all laws are in the shrine of his heart,”8 and he claims that whatever he decides and commands in his churches is spirit and law, even when it is above and contrary to the Scriptures or spoken Word.[1]
Beyond the pope himself, the Catholics also taught that special or elite Christians could also interact with the Holy Spirit directly through various practices called spiritual disciplines.Luther strongly opposed Catholic mysticism that taught people to seek God’s presence inside themselves.Sola scriptura invalidated the Catholic traditions of mysticism that had been embraced by the church for hundreds of years including:
·Direct revelations to popes and other “holy people.”
·“Contemplative prayer” which used eastern style meditation to empty the mind.
·“Lectio divina” which used repetitive reading of the words of scriptures to empty one’s mind.
However, this battle went much further than just revelations within the papacy.In fact, some of Luther’s main battles for sola scriptura were against freestyle spirituality and revelations claimed by the new “Charismatics” emerging within the Protestants that embraced these mystical traditions.The Charismatics Luther battled were broadly called “enthusiasts” because of their excessive emotional zeal and “subjective” means to approach the Holy Spirit.These enthusiasts included Anabaptists and the followers of various leaders people perceived as having some special “anointing.”Luther opposed both Catholic mysticism and protestant enthusiasts because they both rebelled against the authority of scripture.For Luther and the reformers, the Holy Spirit came to them and interacted with them through the scriptures alone not through internal feelings.Here is what Luther says concerning their freestyle spirituality.
It is good to extol the ministry of the Word with every possible kind of praise in opposition to the fanatics who dream that the Holy Spirit does not come through the Word but because of their own preparations. They sit in a dark corner doing and saying nothing, but only waiting for illumination, as the enthusiasts taught formerly and the Anabaptists teach now.[2]
Luther was not necessarily claiming that these people openly rejected or denied the scripture, but that they rebelled against its authority by rejecting the meaning originally intended by the author.The enthusiasts made scriptures say what they felt or wanted them to say through personal interpretations and allegory they claimed were revealed to them by the Holy Spirit.Luther observes:
In these matters, which concern the external, spoken Word, we must hold firmly to the conviction that God gives no one his Spirit or grace except through or with the external Word which comes before. Thus we shall be protected from the enthusiasts — that is, from the spiritualists who boast that they possess the Spirit without and before the Word and who therefore judge, interpret, and twist the Scriptures or spoken Word according to their pleasure.1[3]
Once freed from the tyranny of the Catholic Church, these enthusiasts continued the Catholic paradigm and rejected the legitimate authority of the Holy Spirit speaking through the scripture.They practiced freestyle Christianity interacting with the Holy Spirit through whatever means they felt inspired.These enthusiasts demanded interactions with the Holy Spirit outside of scriptures - revelations felt and perceived internally by individuals as the “voice of the Holy Spirit.”Luther attacked these “revelations” because they had no authority and resulted in people following their own imaginations.
For the Holy Spirit does not—as the enthusiasts and the Anabaptists, truly fanatical teachers, dream—give His instruction through new revelations outside the ministry of the Word.[4]
Error Costs
Luther saw this appetite for new revelations as both dangerous and damaging.He physically witnessed these “revelations” cause the deaths of thousands and misery to tens of thousands who were deluded by their own internal feelings and those of their “spiritual leaders” like Thomas Munzer.Münzer, beheaded in 1525 after the Peasants’ War, was one of the leaders of the radicals claiming spiritual revelations as the basis for his rebellion. Luther was opposed to mysticism because it was as damaging among the Protestants as it was within the Catholic Church. Luther fought this Charismatic paradigm with as much vigor as He did the abusive Catholic Church – the mystical root was the same.Sola scriptura was the foundation that mysticism sought to undermine with internal revelations.Luther says:
Away with our schismatics, who spurn the Word while they sit in corners waiting for the Spirit’s revelation, but apart from the voice of the Word! They say one must sit still in a corner and empty the mind of all speculations, and then the Holy Spirit will fill it.[5]
The modern Charismatic “paradigm” and their concept of the means to interact with the Holy Spirit is not new.The concepts Luther wrote against in the 1500s are the same issues Charismatics struggle with today when they dilute the authority of scriptures with mysticism, internal feelings, or allegorical and personal interpretations of the scripture as how the Spirit communicates.Again, the Reformation considered the work and power of the Holy Spirit essential and crucial in the life of the individual and the church.However, the means through which the Holy Spirit came to the church and exerted His rule – how the Holy Spirit interacted with Christians – this was Luther’s battle.
Sola Scriptura or Popes (one, many or me)
If we reject Luther’s concept of sola scriptura we reject the Reformation – regardless of what is in a statement of faith.Rejecting sola sciptura is to return to serving popes and the foundations of Catholicism, namely God’s will is still revealed to men by the Holy Spirit through freestyle internal revelation.The only question left to answer is which pope to serve; the Catholic one, a new “anointed” leader, or perhaps setting oneself up as a “personal pope” receiving revelations for oneself.Dr. Karlstadt was once such leader in Luther’s day teaching people to be quiet and listen to the voice of the Holy Spirit speaking inside them through “self abstraction.”The means he emphasized was an “inner word” that was “felt” in contrast to an external word that was spoken or read.Karlstadt’s means are the same ones embraced by Charismatics today.This is what Luther says:
But should you ask how one gains access to this same lofty spirit they do not refer you to the outward gospel but to some imaginary realm, saying: Remain in “self abstraction”101 where I now am and you will have the same experience. A heavenly voice will come, and God himself will speak to you. If you inquire further as to the nature of this “self abstraction,” you will find that they know as much about it as Dr. Karlstadt knows of Greek and Hebrew. Do you not see here the devil, the enemy of God’s order? With all his mouthing of the words, “Spirit, Spirit, Spirit,” he tears down the bridge, the path, the way, the ladder, and all the means by which the Spirit might come to you. Instead of the outward order of God … and the oral proclamation of the Word of God he wants to teach you, not how the Spirit comes to you but how you come to the Spirit. They would have you learn how to journey on the clouds and ride on the wind. They do not tell you how or when, whither or what, but you are to experience what they do.[6]
Luther rightly condemns this Charismatic teaching.Why? Because our internal feelings do not have the authority of God.God’s Word has the authority of God and is the means through which the Holy Spirit speaks to us individually and as a congregation.The Holy Spirit speaks to us with an external voice found in the words of scripture, as we read it or hear it preached, and empowers these same words to change our hearts and actions.Here is Luther speaking on the role of the Holy Spirit described in John 16:1, “For He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak.”
Here Christ makes the Holy Spirit a Preacher. He does so to prevent one from gaping toward heaven in search of Him, as the fluttering spirits28 and enthusiasts do, and from divorcing Him from the oral Word or the ministry. One should know and learn that He will be in and with the Word, that it will guide us into all truth, in order that we may believe it, use it as a weapon, be preserved by it against all the lies and deception of the devil, and prevail in all trials and temptations. For there is, after all, no other way and no other means of perceiving the Holy Spirit’s consolation and power, as I have often demonstrated from Holy Writ and have often experienced myself.[7]
The Reformation view of the Holy Spirit’s ruling the church and the authority the leaders themselves exercised was centered on the concept of sola scriptura.The activity of the Holy Spirit working through these leaders was viewed through the lens of sola scriptura, not mysticism with personal revelations or modern prophets.Scripture was the means that the Holy Spirit interacted with the individual and the congregation.This is where they heard the certain voice of God. The message and words of their songs of worship, taken from scripture, were the means through which the Holy Spirit was active in their worship – an understanding of what they were singing about.While Luther may not have believed in a literal millennium, He did understand the rule of the King through the Holy Spirit at our present time through the scriptures and says:
the Holy Spirit establishes a wide difference among teachers and gives the right rule by which the spirits are to be tested. He wants to say that there are two kinds of teachers. There are some who speak on their own authority; that is, they evolve their message from their own reasoning or religious zeal and judgment. The Holy Spirit is not to be that kind of preacher; for He will not speak on His own authority… In this way Christ sets bounds for the message of the Holy Spirit Himself. He is not to preach anything new or anything else than Christ and His Word. Thus we have a sure guide and touchstone for judging the false spirits. [8]
While I believe that scriptures clearly promise a literal Messianic Kingdom for Israel that will come to pass with Jesus reigning in Jerusalem for a thousand years as the actual king over the entire world, now this kingdom is only spiritual and found with the Holy Spirit.Sola scriptura is the means through which the Holy Spirit rules now in the lives of individuals and the church; the visible precursor to the coming reign of the literal kingdom of God that will be manifested in the second coming.Rejecting sola scriptura for freestyle spirituality in the name of the Holy Spirit is rebellion against this kingdom – the actions of an enemy of God. Matthew 7:21.
“Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'”
[1]Tappert, T. G. (2000, c1959). The book of concord : The confessions of the evangelical Lutheran church (312). Philadelphia: Fortress Press.
[2]Tappert, T. G. (2000, c1959). The book of concord : The confessions of the evangelical Lutheran church (212). Philadelphia: Fortress Press.
1 E.g., Luther’s “Against the Heavenly Prophets” (1525).
[3]Tappert, T. G. (2000, c1959). The book of concord : The confessions of the evangelical Lutheran church (312). Philadelphia: Fortress Press.
[4]Luther, M. (1999, c1960). Vol. 2: Luther's works, vol. 2 : Lectures on Genesis: Chapters 6-14 (J. J. Pelikan, H. C. Oswald & H. T. Lehmann, Ed.). Luther's Works (2:162). Saint Louis: Concordia Publishing House.
[5]Luther, M. (1999, c1972). Vol. 17: Luther's works, vol. 17 : Lectures on Isaiah: Chapters 40-66 (J. J. Pelikan, H. C. Oswald & H. T. Lehmann, Ed.). Luther's Works (17:8). Saint Louis: Concordia Publishing House.
101 One of the seven stages in the mystic apprehension of God. Cf.p. 88, and MA3 4, 373.
[6]Luther, M. (1999, c1958). Vol. 40: Luther's works, vol. 40 : Church and Ministry II (J. J. Pelikan, H. C. Oswald & H. T. Lehmann, Ed.). Luther's Works (40:147). Philadelphia: Fortress Press.
[7]Luther, M. (1999, c1961). Vol. 24: Luther's works, vol. 24 : Sermons on the Gospel of St. John: Chapters 14-16 (J. J. Pelikan, H. C. Oswald & H. T. Lehmann, Ed.). Luther's Works (24:362). Saint Louis: Concordia Publishing House.
[8]Luther, M. (1999, c1961). Vol. 24: Luther's works, vol. 24 : Sermons on the Gospel of St. John: Chapters 14-16 (J. J. Pelikan, H. C. Oswald & H. T. Lehmann, Ed.). Luther's Works (24:362). Saint Louis: Concordia Publishing House.
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Much has already been said about what needs to be said re this article, so I'll keep this short. You essentially create a straw man in your definition of charismatic Christians by loosely asserting that experiences and feelings are the ultimate goal in our services. Starting with that flawed presupposition, it is easy to knock down. That is, a narrow plank is quickly painted with a broad brush.
What you don't address is the very real body of believers who don't find this stuff easy, but are compelled to wrestle with the scriptures which urge us to covet the best gifts, and to properly employ them in our corporate worship.
And for an article about sola scriptura, you sure quoted a lot of Luther...Scott Click here to reply to this post
CAN ANY MAN BE RIGHTEOUS WITHOUT THE HOLY SPIRIT OF THE LORD JESUS
Posted On: 05/23/08 10:53:50 AM
Age 64, OH
We know that is by the blood of Jesus that man can be saved. But what is the means by which men are saved. When we humble ourselves before the God who created us, He is merciful and just and cleanses us of all sin. The spirit is the most important and the most powerful part of our being. It is this spirit that God breathed into us that makes us different than the animals. It is this spirit that died in the garden, by God's spirit leaving Adam because of his sin. Jesus is Life and without Jesus no one can have true life. It is the reverse that brings life to us, we become born again when the Holy Spirit of the Lord Jesus comes into our hearts to live. This is why John said Jesus would baptize with the Holy Spirit. So we are born again, we were dead because we were only born of the flesh, but we become truly alive when we are born again. We become alive to the Spirit of God who is The Life. When we become alive to the Spirit of The Lord Jesus Christ we are made righteous. Our flesh is not righteous and never will be, so Jesus has to give us a new body for us to enter heaven. Our soul is not totally righteous because we still have evil thoughts and evil beliefs. This is why we are still here, to have our souls brought unto salvation, by having all the thoughts and beliefs that do not conform to the truth of the Lord Jesus, changed, and the truth sets us free. We are only perfect in our spirit because that is the part that the Holy Spirit lives in. - So the scriptures tell us that Enoch, Noah, and Abraham were all righteous. But no man can be righteous without the blood of Jesus. This is why it says in The Revelation 13:all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world.- God is not a liar and His promises are as good as done. So the fact that Jesus promised to die was good enough to forgive these men who trusted God to save them. The scriptures say Abraham believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness. But Abraham could not become righteous without the Holy Spirit. God appeared to Abraham and spoke to him. But the scriptures also say that God spoke to Abraham in other ways. God called Abraham from a far off land unto Himself to the city of The great King or Salem. Is there more than one way to be righteous. Or did Abraham have the Holy Spirit as we do now. Abraham is called the father of our faith. Lou Click here to reply to this post
Sola scriptura, not solus Luther
Posted On: 05/21/08 02:59:16 PM
Age 56, FRANCE
Effectively, your piece says that we should put our faith in Luther rather than God. God used him greatly, yet he had his flaws. In spite of sola scriptura, he did not like the letter to James and he was a notorious antisemite, which sits oddly with a devotion to scripture.
He did not correct all of the vast number of errors that had been established in the church since the time of the apostles; for the most part he merely substituted a sermon for the mass, but left in place the hierarchical system, that work of the nicolaitans.
The scripture itself makes it clear that the Holy Spirit does give his supernatural gifts of grace to the church and that we should be seeking them, especially prophecy. Rather than denying this, you should be teaching how to use them properly, that is to say, in accordance with the instructions given in the scripture, especially 1 Corinthians. For a start, anything that contradicts the scripture should be judged not to be from the Holy Spirit. The scripture is complete and no new doctrine will be given (at least until Jesus has returned), but prophecy is required for building up the church, for example by bringing to light particular sin in a congregation or bringing encouragement in a particular situation. Miracles and healing give great encouragement to persecuted believers and a special gift of faith is required to authorise one to expect them. Tongues should be used, because in a tongue, the Spirit himself is speaking praise to God, and who can do it better than He? But you are right that the fake and demonic use of tongues must be stopped. That is what the elders should be discerning and acting on. Every move of God has a matching deception from the devil (including fake miracles, according to the bible). He is just as happy to get people like you to deny the word of God from fear of enthusiasm as he is to get others to deny it through non-scriptural use of spiritual gifts.
[[Finally, to Worldview Weekend: please sort out your software to leave paragraph breaks intact in replies!]] Click here to reply to this post
sola scriptura not sola imagination
Posted On: 05/22/08 08:31:43 PM
Age 48, MN
"Prophecy is required for building up the church, for example by bringing to light particular sin in a congregation." This is exactly the kind of concept that this article intends to oppose. God alone knows the heart, this is His prerogative alone. We, the congregation, know and judge only external actions and words. In fact God commands us to judge actions and fruits. I have been part of congregations that used "prophecy" and claimed their revelations were the Holy Spirit exposing sins in individuals or hidden sins in the congregation. It is exactly this type of imaginary authority that is abusive, even when practiced by well meaning people - kind people abusing others in the name of God. The "witches" of Salem, MA were killed because of the “revelations” of their accusers. The same for hundreds of witches killed in France. People claimed that "God told them" about the sins of others. Scripture teaches us differently. Sins must only be dealt with when confirmed by the testimony (objective not subjective) of 2 or 3 witnesses. Prophetic accusations throw out due process and are a travesty in opposition to sola scriptura. The only authority such prophetic accusations have is in the imagination of the accuser or their deluded followers. Click here to reply to this post
GOD SAYS THAT PROPHECY MUST BE ALLOWED IN OUR CHURCHES
Posted On: 05/23/08 09:25:05 AM
Age 64, OH
Many men claim to be Christian but have murdered in the name of Jesus. Does this make Jesus evil or are the men ,who made the claim that they followed Jesus when they did not,evil. It is the men not Jesus who are evil of course. Because many people claim to follow The Holy Spirit, but do not follow Him but follow their own deceptions; this does not make following the Holy Spirit evil. How can following God ever be evil. Do you believe the scriptures or not. Look at what the Holy Spirit says through our dear brother Paul: 1 Cor: 1Follow the way of love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially the gift of prophecy.- We can see here that Paul tells us that we should desire the gift of prophecy, and do you despise this gift.- 18I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you. 19But in the church I would rather speak five intelligible words to instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue.- Paul spoke in tongues, are you greater than Paul.- 26What then shall we say, brothers? When you come together, everyone has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. ALL THESE MUST BE DONE for the strengthening of the church. 27If anyone speaks in a tongue, two—or at the most three—should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. 28If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and God.
29Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said. 30And if a revelation comes to someone who is sitting down, the first speaker should stop. 31For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged. 32The spirits of prophets are subject to the control of prophets. 33For God is not a God of disorder but of peace. - God clearly says these things MUST BE DONE in the church. this is why the church is so sick in this nation. Either they do not allow the gifts of the Holy Spirit to flow or they seek the GIFTS instead of THE GIVER of the gifts and it is counterfeit gifts of the flesh or even Satan that flow in our churches. To say The Holy Spirit is speaking when it is flesh is a very serious sin. It is also a very serious sin to speak against the ministry of The Holy Spirit. This was the sin of the pharisees.- Look in the OT and see that God spoke through the prophets for the whole time, even though they had the scriptures of the time before. But the people never listened to the prophets but had them killed. Nothing has changed, and Satan still wants to stop The Holy Spirit from speaking to His people. Lou Click here to reply to this post
He must increase, I must decrease.
Posted On: 05/21/08 10:06:51 AM
Age 47, MO
I am neither Charasmatic or a Reformationist; I am a witness of what Christ has done for me, and what He has shown me. What Christ is doing for me is to be changing my life from self-serving rightousness, to Christ-serving HIS Rightousness. He has shown me many truths that I did not seek, and many others that I could never understand with my own reasoning. One such truth is that the Reformationist mantra of "sola this and sola that," leaves the true adherent waiting for revelations of understanding, just as Charasmatics are waiting for the feeling of "movement" of the Spirit. However, both views are wrong. Scripture and the Spirit within me both attest to the simple fact that true Christians ARE led by the Spirit (Romans 8:6-14). Friends, it ALWAYS goes back to the same thing; the Christian life is DEATH to self and alive to Christ. Kevin: I get the point of your article that Christianity is not a feeling, but it is not a mental assent either. Christianity, as outlined in Romans 12, is a daily death of self will. Galatians 5:16 John Click here to reply to this post
SIMEON LEARNED OF JESUS BY THE HOLY SPIRIT NOT THE SCRIPTURES
Posted On: 05/20/08 11:33:29 PM
Age 64, OH
Dear K. Jentoft, Here is question for you. Luke 2:25 Now there was a man in Jerusalem called Simeon, who was righteous and devout. He was waiting for the consolation of Israel, and the Holy Spirit was upon him. 26It had been REVEALED TO HIM BY THE HOLY SPIRIT that he would not die before he had seen the Lord's Christ. 27MOVED BY THE SPIRIT, he went into the temple courts. When the parents brought in the child Jesus to do for him what the custom of the Law required, 28Simeon took him in his arms and praised God, saying:
29"Sovereign Lord, as you have promised,
you now dismiss your servant in peace.
30For my eyes have seen your salvation,
31which you have prepared in the sight of all people,
32a light for revelation to the Gentiles
and for glory to your people Israel."
33The child's father and mother marveled at what was said about him. 34Then Simeon blessed them and said to Mary, his mother: "This child is destined to cause the falling and rising of many in Israel, and to be a sign that will be spoken against, 35so that the thoughts of many hearts will be revealed. And a sword will pierce your own soul too." -- MY QUESTION IS THIS: How come this man who depended on the moving of the Holy Spirit and the voice of the Holy Spirit seen Jesus and recognized Jesus as the Son of God, before Jesus had done one miracle; and the pharisees who studied the holy scriptures diligently as Jesus said, called Jesus the son of Satan even after Jesus had even raised the dead right before their eyes. This man Simeon learned of Jesus by The Holy Spirit and NOT from the scriptures. Lou Click here to reply to this post
Simeon and John the Baptist
Posted On: 05/22/08 07:26:51 PM
Age 48, MN
Lou, Both Simeon and John the Baptist were prophets in the Old Testament sense. God, at His choosing, picked certain people to be prophets and set His Spirit upon them. At this time the Holy Spirit had still not been sent in the way it was sent to all at Pentecost as we see in John 7:39, "But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified." In fact, John the Baptist had to be filled with the Spirit in the womb because God had certainly declared it through the angel- if not God would have lied. John was the last of the Old Testament prophets and was the greatest not because he did the most miracles but because he actually saw the great fulfillment of the coming of the actual messiah. John pointed out the very man Jesus to Israel. What we have now is different, unless you claim that you have the same authority as an Old Testament prophet. Heb 1:1 says, "God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways in these last days has spoken to us in His Son." John the Baptist spoke as an authoritative prophet. Simeon was an authoritative prophet and both their prophecies meet the criteria to judge them found in 1 John 4:1, they testify to Jesus come in the flesh. Your feelings and impressions are not authoritative and must come under the authority of scripture and sola scriptura. You don't write scripture. The words of those men were scripture. K Jentoft Click here to reply to this post
WHEN DID THE HOLY SPIRIT COME
Posted On: 05/23/08 10:17:58 AM
Age 64, OH
Thank you dear friend for your kind reply. You say,"unless you claim that you have the same authority as an Old Testament prophet". The OT prophets had absolutely no authority of their own. All authority is in The Lord Jesus Christ as the scriptures declare, as I am sure you will agree. So all authority is in the Holy Spirit of The Lord Jesus Christ who lives in my heart as well. (in fact you even claim that the Holy Spirit is in me in a better way, I do not agree with you on this) So the Holy Spirit who lives in me has ALL AUTHORITY, or do you claim different. Or do you claim that I do not have the Holy Spirit. In fact I will offer evidence that the Holy Spirit lives in me and speaks through me by His grace and grace alone. Paul says that God chooses the foolish things of this world to confound the wise, and my foolishness should be obvious to you as your wisdom is obvious to me. - You misunderstand the scripture John 7:39, "But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified."- The disciples knew Jesus in the flesh. Jesus came in the flesh so He could die for us men of flesh. But this put Jesus at a disadvantage, for he made Himself a little lower than the angels to become the Man and He was not omnipresent in The flesh. Jesus The Man could only be with a few men, but Jesus the Holy Spirit could live in us all. Also the disciples had communion with Jesus in the flesh, but Jesus wanted them to have communion with Him in The Spirit. The Spirit is much more powerful than the flesh. Jesus was NOT SAYING that the Holy Spirit had never been given to anyone, ever. For the Holy Spirit had been given to John and the scriptures say both of John parents were filled with the Spirit. God does not lie of course. Jesus is saying that The Holy Spirit had not been given to any of the disciples yet. A person has to see the glory of God who is The Christ in order for the Holy Spirit to be given them. The glory of Jesus is His death on the cross. The disciples were still denying that Jesus would die. They had to see Jesus die to see His glory. We have much more evidence that this is true. Pentecost was not the first time that the Holy Spirit was EVER GIVEN, BUT it is was a mighty outpouring of the Holy Spirit to all that would listen. Look in the Book, John 20;21Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." 22And with that he breathed on them and said, "RECEIVE THE HOLY SPIRIT".- This was on the day Jesus rose from the dead and before Pentecost. The disciples had seen His glory of His death and resurrection. Blessed are those that see and believe, but even more blessed are those that do not see and still believe. Surly the winds and waves obeyed this Lord Jesus who spoke "let there be light and there was light". When did the wind and waves obey, so fast it scared the disciples. When did the light obey Him, right as he spoke. If mere molecules, that are not spirit obey Jesus right as He speaks, how much more the Holy Spirit that is the Spirit of God Himself obey . The disciples received the Holy Spirit on Easter Sunday just as Jesus said. You do believe the scriptures, do you not. Then believe what Jesus said in this scripture. The words of any mere men mean little at most, but if these words are spoken by God Almighty then should we not listen and believe. Tradition was wrong when Jesus came to Israel to be born of a woman. Just as tradition is wrong much of the time in this day. May the grace and mercy of Jesus be with you dear friend. Lou Click here to reply to this post
Marie
Posted On: 05/21/08 08:37:53 AM
Age 47, TX
I am intrigued by the first observation by Lou and would like to read a response by Jentoft. Simeon does indeed have truth revealed to him by the Holy Spirit, and scriptures say that he was "moved by the Holy Spirit." Since God is the same yesterday, today and forever, then why should we eliminate God working in us today the way he worked in Simeon? The Holy Spirit can work in people by giving them dreams about Jesus that lead them to salvation. I hear testimonies from people in Turkey and other foreign countries that have little access to the Bible or to Christians that they had Jesus come to them in a dream and reveal to them who He is. It almost sounds like Jentoft is saying that the Holy Spirit's work is limited by words written on literal pages. I am left confused by Jentoft even though his words at first seemed true. I have seen people depend on feelings instead of God's truth and have known churches where the game day plan seems to be to sit around and wait on revelation from God before just going out and living and preaching the Word. So please, Jentoft, please explain what was happening when Yahweh sent the Holy Spirit to reveal truth to Simeon and to move Simeon to the temple courts! Click here to reply to this post
Confirmation By the Sola Scriptura
Posted On: 05/23/08 06:04:37 PM
Age 30, WA
I believe that the Scripture is the objective source that we frail, imperfect un-inspired human beings use to confirm if in fact, we are being moved by the Holy Spirit. In these end times, since the times of Jesus, the Scriptures have been arranged, collected, and secured for us. We have a great advantage to have such quick access to the Word of God, in its complete entirety. Just as Scripture interprets Scripture, so does Scripture interpret the Scripture that the Holy Spirit brings to the minds of believers now days. I don't know about you guys, but when I get a feeling about something, I always go and check it with the Scripture and the Scripture alone. So therefore, Sola Scriptura is the basis for walking in the Spirit. I think that is what J was saying, and I do believe that even though Luther was a Book of Revelation hating, Anti-semitic Replacement Theologian ect...I do believe he did have some victories in his spiritual life i.e. the 95 theses. So, not every man is the fountain of truth, but thank God the Scriptures and the Scriptures ALONE(Sola Scriptura) are a fountain of truth in its entirety. 66 books, 40 different authors, written over a 1700 hundred year period, and it is all complete, solidified and self-authenticating. Click here to reply to this post
THE HOLY SPIRIT IS THE INTERPRETER
Posted On: 05/23/08 08:20:52 PM
Age 64, OH
If you truly believe then show me a statement IN the Holy Scriptures that say that the scriptures are our only source. Or show me a statement that says the scriptures interpret the scriptures. Or show me a statement that says we should follow the scriptures. Is it not written in the scriptures that God is our ONLY source. Is it not written in the scriptures that The Holy Spirit is The Interpreter. job 16: 20My interpreter [is] my friend, Unto God hath mine eye dropped: here Job calls God his interpreter. Jesus said He is The Way. Jesus is NOT a way but THE WAY meaning The One and Only Way. Does not the word Way mean the path we should follow. So we should follow Jesus as Jesus says, if you believe the scriptures you claim to follow. We look in the Book to hear the voice of the Author. But it is the Author we follow not His Book. Jesus Himself is our example is He not. We are to be as much like Him as we can be. Jesus never said he followed the scriptures but said he did everything the Father told Him to do and did not do anything unless the Father told Him to do it. Jesus was led by The Spirit and we are to be like Him. Or don't you think we should be like Jesus. You need to know if you should turn left or right. can you look in the Book and see what way to turn. The Holy Spirit can tell you. If you are about to be hit with a truck, can you look in the Book and find out that a truck is about to hit you. the Holy Spirit has kept me from harm by speaking to me. You can believe your own inclinations OR you can believe the Holy scriptures that say Romans 8:14 "because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God". - Lou Click here to reply to this post
Hmm..
Posted On: 05/24/08 04:56:13 PM
Age 30, WA
No, I suppose the Scriptures don't tell me what foot to put my first shoe on, but I believe from the Scriptures that God knows the future and that His plans aren't to harm me. I had a feeling that God was on my side, but not until I read Jeremiah 29:11
"For I know the plans I have for you," declares the LORD, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future." Then and only then was my feeling validated. Lou, see you can tell me till your blue in the face that God gives you revelation for now days, and that the Holy Spirit told you this and that. But if I can't check what your saying with Scripture, then it is pointless for me to adhere to what you say. God would not expect me to listen to you over the examples in the Scripture to apply my life to. And Lou,the Bible doesn't have the word "Bible" in it. Neither does it have the word "Trinity" in it either, but we know that God is 3 persons and One God. Scripture interprets Scripture, it is just a fact. That is the way God designed it. Ever read a Scripture that corresponded with another Scripture? Hello...It is imperative to the Science of Hermenuetics. And because of God designing it that way, it makes it so guys like you can't lead the Church astray with your "Personal Revelations." I'm glad it is not up to me to bring New Revelation to Scripture, I am glad it is already Revealed. All the way until the end of the Earth and it's elements are burned up. All the way the Scriptures tell us what happens when a new heaven and a new Earth is created. What can you add to that Lou? Don't take it too far Lou, God knows what you are doing with your twist on Him speaking to you. I just hope you know what your doing with it and how far you are taking it. Click here to reply to this post
Spiritual discernment
Posted On: 05/28/08 10:11:03 AM
Age 47, MO
Scriptures are: the revelation of who God is and what he is doing, the prophecy of coming events, the record of creation, the law of rightousness, and the Good News of Jesus Christ. However, what is true is 100% true where ever it is found. So, Christ (The TRUTH) is also found in the cosmo's, the creation, love, calamity, and all reality. Indeed, all of life leads to Christ if we open our eyes to see it. Even the rocks shout the glory of God if we can hear it. The rocks can never be heard, the Scriptues can never be understood, and the truth can never be seen without Spiritual eyes that only Christ can provide. So, the reality for a Christian who IS led by the Spirit (Romans 8:14) is that if we follow the Spirit- we are following the Word and are following Scriptures. Therefore, the SPIRIT remains pre-eminate over all things just like in the beginning Gen 1:2. John Click here to reply to this post
THE BIBLE
Posted On: 05/27/08 12:29:20 AM
Age 64, OH
You should never listen to me or any other man. But seek Jesus Christ and live. There was Prophet who was sent by God Almighty in NT times and the leaders of the church would not even consider the things that He spoke. They instead studied the scriptures diligently and had this Prophet crucified on a cross. The words on the page can never be understood by any man without the interpretation of the Holy Spirit. So without the Holy Spirit no man will see Truth with or without the Scriptures. Please read my post GOD SAID PROPHECY MUST BE ALLOWED IN OUR CHURCHES. I believe this statement by Paul in the scriptures do you. As far as the word Bible not appearing in the Book, yes, but can anyone say the the Title The Bible ON the Book was not inspired by the Holy Spirit. Lou Click here to reply to this post
THE HOLY SPIRIT LEADS US BY DREAMS, VISIONS, AND PROPHECY
Posted On: 05/22/08 05:52:07 PM
Age 64, OH
The Lord Jesus has always led His people with dreams as he did Daniel. Daniel had the Holy Scriptures, but the scriptures would NOT tell Daniel what the kings dream was, would it. God had to tell Daniel in a dream. The Bible is filled with people that God has led by dreams and visions and prophecies. Joel 2:28 "And afterward, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your old men will dream dreams, your young men will see visions. - We can see that God does not agree with K. Jentoft and told us years ago how the Holy Spirit would lead us. Of course these dreams etc should not go against what the Holy Spirit has already spoken. Lou Click here to reply to this post
JESUS SAID THE HOLY SPIRIT WILL BE GIVEN TO THOSE WHO ASK
Posted On: 05/20/08 11:18:45 PM
Age 64, OH
Dear friend K. Jentoft, You say "the scriptures are clear to the rational reader". You claim to follow the scriptures but you do not seem to, to me. Paul says, 1 Corinthians 2:14 The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and HE CAN NOT UNDERSTAND THEM, because they are spiritually discerned. -- if the scriptures are true then this statement is true is it not. If the people without the Holy Spirit CAN NOT understand the things that come from the Spirit of God in the Holy Scriptures then how are they to learn of Jesus Christ if that is the only way to learn of Him. Just as many people who read the scriptures are lead into error because they do not surrender to Jesus. This is why we have so many denominations that each says the other is going to hell. If they all read the same book then why are there so many versions of the truth. The Jehovah Witnesses claim the same as you do and they are lost. That does NOT make the Bible untrue does it. Just the same, many claim to seek the Holy Spirit for their own gain and are in error. that does NOT MAKE SEEKING the Holy Spirit of the Lord Jesus wrong. God is NOT a liar, Luke 11:13 If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!" -- Jesus does NOT say that the Holy Spirit will be gi
