When dealing with the question; “Should women be in ministry?” we should really rephrase the question. The proper question should be; “What ministry should women be in?” The reason we have this question in the first place is due to the upheaval in our culture as it moves away from the biblical mandates of personal behavior and order. It used to be a given that men were ministers. God is the God of order. When he created Adam and Eve he had set things in order. When sin entered the world through the disobedience of the first couple the world was introduced to disorder. That is what sin brings. The multiplication of sin has brought more disorder. The Christian life is really a fight between order and disorder. It is a fight between authority and rebellion. As we submit to God’s Word, we walk in order. However if we allow the pressures of a disorderly culture move us we are walking in disorder. This is true no matter what our “feelings” may tell us. God’s Word is not subject to feelings and emotions. It is the lamp unto our feet and the light unto our path (Psalm 119:105). The world system (sinful disorder) will always attempt to influence the biblical Church (order and authority).
All people including young and old, male or female are vital to the Lord’s Church.The question is a matter of authority and spiritual position in God’s plan in this present age (The Church Age). Let us first look at this important question of authority;
Authority and Order
1 Corinthians 14:40 “Let all things be done decently and in order”
Titus 1:5 “For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee”
Obey Church Leaders
Hebrews 13:17 “Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you”
1 Thessalonians 1:6 “And ye became followers of us, and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Ghost”
1 Timothy 5:17 “Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.”
Ministers are calledto be
1)(Messengers called “angles”)Revelation 1:20-2:1 “The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches. Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;”
2)(Elders) 1 Timothy 5:17 “Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.”
3)(God’s workers in spiritual ministry) 1 Thessalonians 3:2“And sent Timotheus, our brother, and minister of God, and our fellowlabourer in the gospel of Christ, to establish you, and to comfort you concerning your faith:”
4)(Men of God) 1 Timothy 6:11“But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness.”
5)(Ministers of the Church) Colossians 1:24-25“Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church: Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfill the word of God;”
God has made specific requirements concerning who is in authority and who is not. When it comes to the family unit, it is clear that the husband is in authority;
Ephesians 5:22-24 “Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.”
A very important scripture concerning who is to be an Elder or Pastor is the following one;
1 Timothy 3:4-5 “One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)”
This passage clearly links the authority of a man in his home to the authority of men in the Church. It is clear that God also put men in charge of His Church. God has established his authority structure and has clearly place men in leadership over women. We see this principle in numerous places in the bible. Here are a few more examples;
Titus 2:5 “To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.”
1 Peter 3:1-6 “Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives; While they behold your chaste conversation coupled with fear. Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel; But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price. For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands: Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement.”
1 Corinthians 11:8-9 “For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man.Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.”
The issue of women in ministry is not an issue of if, but rather what ministry? The answer is this. A woman may serve in the church in various capacities as long as those capacities do not violate the principles of authority and male leadership. Since my position is a biblical one and not a politically correct one I will sum it up. Women are not to be Elders, Pastors, or any of the five ministry offices listed in Ephesians 4:11 since that would be a violation of God’s Word. Women may be in spiritual authority over other women and children but not over men. Since the qualifications listed in 1Timothy 3 also state that a deacon must be “the husband of one wife” (1Tim 3:2), it is also clear that the office of Deacon should be held by males. Women may serve with great results in many ministries however not as Pastors/Elders/Deacons. Jesus chose 12 men to be the foundational leaders of the Church, and the apostles said to choose seven men to be Deacons. It is important to remember that this issue has nothing to do with worth, or ability. There are many women that have great abilities. It has everything to do with order and authority. God has placed the family unit, and the Church in a certain order. To ordain women as Pastors/Elders/Deacons is a violation of the Word of God and due to either a lack of scriptural understanding, or simply an attempt to make the bible say what meets the desire. We must not allow cultural pressure or political correctness to dictate to the Church its authority structure.
Dr. David M. Berman Senior Pastor, Author, Convention Speaker 211 Whitcomb Road P.O. Box 10357 Swanzey, NH. 03446 Phone 603 352 9471
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Hi,
I'm a Minister from Africa.
Just want to send a short message of encouragement and support to Rev. Dr. David. This really the 1st time I have seen God using a Theologian to speak the Truth of the Bible. Since the time of the Pharisees up to this day of Dr. David, Theologians are tools of the enemy to reasoning on the Bible, instead of preaching the Word they are used to present the theology of Catholics, ethodists, Baptists, and all the denominations on the face of the earth, never been able to speak the Word. With Dr. David is now a new generation and a judgment to the rest of Theologians.
Stand firm my brother, knowing that men of vision stand alone in victory as it's written, "Jacob remained alone", then met God. Click here to reply to this post
I have just become aware of your web site and I think it is very good. Since I just became aware of it I have a question for you. I am searching to find info on Dr. Elizebeth Scott who preaches on TV from CA. Do you have any info on her other than her web site. I listened to her and find her very intelligent as to the languages and her theology teaching seems to be OK. Am I missing anything or have I missed any posted messages on your web site concerning her? If I have please let me know eher I can find more about her as others are concerned also. Thank you........I will await your reply. Click here to reply to this post
response but no answer..Here is your answer once only.
Posted On: 04/04/08 11:42:44 PM
Age 44, NH
Since I know the Internet is filled with people who sit behind computer screens and anonymously attack, I know they feel that they can say anything without consequences, I normally do not respond to personal accusations about my character. It is like a cat chasing his tail when one such as myself attempts to respond to lies. I however will respond this time once and once only. Here we go; I graduated from Atlantic Southern Bible College. The name was changed from River of Life Bible College to Atlantic Southern Bible college. The college had a very nice campus in GA. When I graduated, members of my family were in attendance. It was a beautiful time, I felt good having earned my degree in Pastoral Ministry. A few years after I graduated the College closed. Not sure why, but I heard it was financial problems. After that I went on to the Masters, and Doctoral Degree from Christian Bible College in NC. (Along with a tremendous amount of reading work) My Doctoral Dissertation was 350 pages (76,000 words) It is now published and available at any book store, Amazon.com, Walmart.com etc, and also in Europe, and Australia. It is titled "Berman's Commentary on the Book Of Romans." I worked very hard on it and studied every single word in the original tongue. Since I am a husband, father of five, and a full time Pastor who planted 2 churches (one with another Pastor, one by myself, a huge job) I was not able to do everything in the traditional manner of going to live on campus. If that is not good enough for you, don't join the Church I am the Senior Pastor of. One person complained that my theology degrees were not "accredited by the federal government" Why would I want the government to accredit religious study? I do not believe the federal government should be involved with any education!!! I am an originalist on the Constitution! The same people who want "separation of Church and state" want the federal government to accredit theology? I do not care what the federal government says about anything except what the 10th amend. allows the federal government power over. I earned what I have, I have proclaimed the gospel to literally millions of people on radio and TV, I have personally won aprox 800 people to Jesus that I know of. I am willing to speak on issues that most preachers in America are afraid of. Do you think I get paid to write for this web site? Do you think I have personally gained from my decision to leave my business and devote my life to full time service? You know nothing of my sacrifice. People throw darts at me, besmirch my character, and even those who call themselves Christians attack me personally. I am sure that people will attack me even for defending myself here in this reply. By stating my work for Christ they will say I am boasting. I can't win with those who desire to destroy others. If this reply is not good enough, with respect, I simply do not care. I know the truth, I know what I have personally given up to give my life to preaching the Word of God. I was a successful businessman, I gave it up and suffered personally financially. I know the hours of toil, time, and pouring my heart out to help people in desperate situations. I know of feeding hungry, clothing those who were desperate. I know of the marriages, and families I have poured my heart out to help. It is a shame that I must respond to lies that originally started from a blogger who does not even have enough guts to put his real name on his blog. Worse yet are the "Christians" who continue the personal attacks against me. I suggest that people argue against my positions if they disagree rather than the personal attacks. Do I think that this will stop the personal attacks? No I don't and that is just the way it is is a Nation that has turned its back of traditional values. There simply are very few gentlemen left. Most are wolves waiting to pounce. This is the only time I will answer this. I will not allow myself to be distracted from my mission.
-Dr. David Berman Click here to reply to this post
No Preachers or Teachers
Posted On: 04/02/08 07:23:43 AM
Age 55, TX
Any role where there is teaching of the Scripture is really not assigned to women. Paul says a woman is not allowed to teach and yet a pastor is to be able to teach as would the teacher in Eph 5 be it a separate offcie or actually speaking to a pastor-teacher.
The older women teach the younger but note the subject matter in Titus and the Greek word for teach is different than that in Timothy.
You argue from silence on Priscila as she was present but we really do not know what subject matter she was involved with so neither position can really use this as an argument. She may have just amened her husband or gave her testimony. It is doubtful that she did any "teaching" as we view the subject but again since the evidence is not there for either side we must refer back to 1 Tim 2 and 3 as well as Titus as the final authorities. Albeit since this happened before that command was given she may have stepped out of bounds but again without more dialogue we cannot argue either way effectively.
Phoebe may well have been the wife of a Deacon and did the type of ministry that Dorcas had in Acts. A wife of a deacon was most likely called a deaconess much like Deborah was called a prophetess though she may have only been married to a prophet. Her real abilities were most likely as a poetess or singer as the word also has that connotation and we see her song in Judges.
Neither Deborah or Phoebe were in the male roles of the titles. Instead of using titles like First Lady or Mrs Pastor as I have heard in our culture the folks recognized her role as the wife by using the title of her husband instead of Mrs. The gender of a noun does not change clear teaching in another passage by the same person who wrote both sections. Were there Elderettes? Only if they called wives of the Elders that but they had no role as an elder.
Also note, that Barak is mentioned in Hebrews 11 not Deborah. Possibly because she did exceed her role and God did not want her to be used as an example for a position she should not have held though it appears to have been thrust upon her by Barak since he came to her. There are many things to be questioned about that scenario.
Though it worked out for Israel, she may have been wrong in doing so proving that pragmatism does not generate good theology or practice. Again, we have too much silence to argue from and nothing profitable for any position comes from that type of argument.
Men lead and women support.
Interesting one of the first "women libbers" founded a college to train women for their calling or role in life, home economics. She said it was their role, not I.
Shalom! Click here to reply to this post
Praise God for Missions
Posted On: 03/28/08 09:47:44 PM
Age 50, PA
Women have been called as missionaries throughout church history. As missionaries women have served as preachers, teachers, leaders, doctors, nurses, evangelists and so much more. Women have even founded churches within nations. Some examples are: Ruth Saint who served in Ecuador, Gladys Alyward in China, Mary Slessor who went to Calabar, Amy Carmichael in India, Lottie Moon in China Corrie TenBoom to name a few. Both single and married women have served as missionaries all over the world some working side be side with their husbands and both single and married women have at time had their own specific call and ministry too.
Praise God for missions! Click here to reply to this post
women ministry
Posted On: 04/21/08 09:30:09 AM
Age 41, ENGLAND
My dear, no matter how many women you quote who have been teachers, the truth is it is not scriptural. And, when its not scriptural, God is not in it. It might appear good, just because God allows it to happen so He to get preemminence! Click here to reply to this post
We hold fast to what we want
Posted On: 03/28/08 03:10:39 PM
Age 50, MN
How do you determine what is culture to the era this was written and what is binding for us today? Straight from Jesus' mouth was the admonisment that "anyone who divorces and remarries commits adultery." And of course adultery is totally unpermitted. So why do we excuse that but want to make this stuff from Paul binding and non-negotiable?// I believe it has had more to do with men wanting to maintain thier cultural role of power and dominance and less with the intent and spirit of the Biblical text.// We excuse what we don't want to practice and we hold firm the things that holds our positions in place. //In other words, too long to exposit here I think this article is completely off base. Click here to reply to this post
off base? Divorce? huhh?
Posted On: 03/28/08 06:08:39 PM
Age 44, NH
What in the world are you talking about. I never said divorce is ok. The Word is the Word. You don't like it? Thats your choice but please do not put words in my mouth. I say what I mean and mean what I say.
-Dr. Berman Click here to reply to this post
Is remarriage adultery?
Posted On: 03/29/08 12:54:38 PM
Age 50, MN
Also Jesus did permit divorce - it was the remarriage he said was adultery. How come I never see any articles on that? Do you preach against remarriage from your pulpit? So my question is how do you pick and choose what is binding and what is culturally acceptable now? Hopefully you're doing it with honest exposition but more often then not (and I could give many more examples) it's based on what the church wants to do with it's own personal agendas. Click here to reply to this post
It's all over the evangelical church
Posted On: 03/29/08 08:28:50 AM
Age 50, MN
I didn't say you - but the statistics on Christian divorce and remarriage are the same as non-christian. All of our churches are densely populated with remarried people. I'm not saying they shouldn't be (although of course divorce is a tragedy), just saying because we as men want to have the freedom to divorce and remarry we ignore that, but want to hold on to these words of Paul? Have you ever performed a ceremony for a divorced person? If so you are ignoring these words, if not if you are by far the exception. Click here to reply to this post
why the silence
Posted On: 04/02/08 01:56:10 PM
Age 50, MN
I was awaiting your reply Doctor, because I do want to know how you determine what is applicaple to today and what do you discard? We do not adhere to all NT teaching of Paul and very little of the OT in today's church - what are the determining factors? //I try not to make this personal but I have seen you sidestep and ignore questions before (concerning your degrees, accredidation, insistence on multiple titles before and after your name, etc.) We live in a world with complexities and if we back off everytime our preconcieved notions are challenged we don't have much to offer, in my opinion. Character matters on these kinds of issues too as we see everyday in the political arena (we challenge the background of Barack, Hilary, etc all the time). Click here to reply to this post
why the silence??
Posted On: 04/02/08 02:40:15 PM
Age 44, NH
There is a very simple reason for my "silence" as you put it. I do not get on here and read everything written about me. I do not respond to everything written about me. If I did I would have no time to minister the Word of God. As far as "sidestep and ignore questions", I sidestep nothing! I am who I am and with it comes a myriad of accusations, half truths, and innuendos. I choose to listen to the great advice of the late Dr. Jerry Fallwell, I am not going to spend my time rehashing the same old false charges against me. I simply do not care what people who lie about me may think. I state my positions. If you disagree, that is your right. I am under no obligation to constantly respond to everyone who comments about my positions. Sometimes I respond if I have time to, and feel it makes sense to.
-Dr. Berman Click here to reply to this post
response but no answer
Posted On: 04/03/08 08:58:57 AM
Age 50, MN
Well you responded almost immediately to my first post. You responded to another one about this article. In the past you respond promptly to most posts. //Here you take the time to respond, but you do not answer my question, which is a legitimate one about how you read scripture in light of culture, with a couple of examples and questions for you.// Because you call something a lie doesn't make it one, it appears to me a way to dodge real issues and deflect people from inquiring. There are very real questions about your degrees and the college you got them from. It may be a different article, but as I said these are the kinds of questions we find relevant about our leaders (Barack's history with the UMCC, Hilary's rewriting her trip to Bosnia, and on and on). It is important for them to answer these questions and I believe for you to also, rather than just to say they are lies, when in fact nothing I've written here is untrue. Click here to reply to this post
Questions don't go away
Posted On: 04/07/08 07:45:44 AM
Age 50, MN
I think ingoring it with the hopes that it will go away may be the best course of action for you. // But when you want to speak authoritatively about controversial subjects, I personally think you should be prepared to discuss people's viewpoints and try to help them understand why you feel you are correct. and I'm not even talking about your college. Click here to reply to this post
A Closer Look
Posted On: 03/27/08 08:52:33 AM
Age 47, OH
I am a woman, and totally agree...almost. I was taught and believe from the Scripture there is no gift available to men that is not available to women. The issue is not one of gifting, but CONTEXT. Women have their own unique context for exercising their gifts. Simply put, they are not to exercise authority over men. Agreed. The one statement I disagree with is: women are not to hold the 5 ministry offices of Eph. 4:11. You seem to assume these "ministry offices" are ministry offices that exercise authority over men by definition. I do not believe that is a necessary assumption, nor what the Bible teaches. I would like to take a look at that:
Apostles: Well, what do you mean by apostles? I was taught the word means "sent one" and refers to both missionaries and church planters. I would call both Hudson Taylor and his wife "apostles". The gift/office of apostleship would look different for Hudson Taylor than for his wife. Both were church planters; both were missionaries. Mrs. Taylor, I’m sure, played a different role from her husband, but a vital role all the same. (She probably taught the women and children, and while being a good helpmeet to her husband, which in their roles probably had some unique challenges.) Single women with a teem of church planters/missionaries would also fall under this category. Or even single women like those missionaries that run orphanages/schools, or even women like Gladys Alward, Mary Slessor, and Amy Carmichael.
Prophets: Anna was a New Testament "prophetess" (Luke 2:36); and in 1 Cor. 11, women are instructed to cover their heads whenever they pray or prophesy: clearly women were prophesying in church.
Evangelists: We are all called to evangelize, but maybe you are making a distinction on an "office"? Not all evangelists operate in the same context as Billy Graham. Priscilla (a woman) and Aquilla together straightened out Apollos (Acts 18:26). Women evangelizing is not a case of women having authority over men: the Gospel carries its own authority. "For it [the Gospel] is the power of God for salvation..for in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith" (Romans 1:16-17). The proclamation of the Gospel is open to everyone.
Pastors: Women who head up "women's ministries" can be "pastors" over women.
Teachers: Women can be Sunday school teachers and can teach women's groups and women's Bible studies. Beth Moore is excellent--but she writes Bible Studies FOR WOMEN. The older women are to teach the younger women (Titus 2:4). Because these women are teaching children and other women, they are no less teachers and it need not be any less of an "office".
As I said, I am a woman, and I have verbalized my concern over the church's trend toward neuter, and I am often most opposed by men! I have found it is the men pushing women into leadership that they should not be in! And when I say women should apply themselves to teaching children and other women, people act as if I am devaluing women! It is they who are devaluing women; because, in essence, what they are saying is the only way to be truly valuable is to teach MEN! Everything else is less. If this were not their worldview, then it would not be devaluing to women to instruct us to take up our roles and giftings with children and other women. As a woman, I do not find it flattering to be informed that to realize my full potential and be truly valuable, I must take on the role of a man. This does not value women as women: it communicates women can only be valuable as surrogate men. "Women" are often defined by who they are not: not pastors over men, not elders, etc. (Eve = not Adam.) This is a problem. I would like to see the church apply itself to defining women for who they are in their God given roles (instead of who they are not), to developing the appropriate contexts for women to use all their gifting as women (not in the roles of men), and to valuing and elevating the regard for those God given roles: that is, to value women as women.
I so appreciate most everything you said, but I disagree with your statement about Eph. 4:11. And it saddens me, because I think it discredits you, when the rest of what you said is so needed. Click here to reply to this post
A Closer look, discredited
Posted On: 03/28/08 01:17:13 AM
Age 52, GA
You wrote, "I so appreciate most everything you said, but I disagree with your statement about Eph. 4:11. And it saddens me, because I think it discredits you, when the rest of what you said is so needed." Before you start discrediting the good Dr., let me refer you to 1 Tim. 2:12. The offices you speak of 4:11 are clearly delineated as male roles in this passage of scripture, both historically and Biblically. There were no female apostles designated by the Lord. The teachers (rabbis) in those days were men. Prophetesses were not mentioned in this passage, it clearly states prophets. The evangelists (preachers) called by our Lord and sent out by twos were men not women. Pastors or shepherds are nowhere designated as roles for women either. Once again sister, before you admonish a man such as the good Dr., I suggest you check yourself (before stating your opinion), and abide by 1 Tim. 2:12. Concentrate on working to raise your children up in the truth, or teaching a younger sister how to do so, and boldly declare you are not devalued in anyway by so doing! Click here to reply to this post
Prophetesses
Posted On: 03/29/08 08:38:26 AM
Age 40, PA
A close reading of the Acts (of the Holy Spirit)shows that Philip had daughters who were prophetesses. The role of prophet is not and was not bound by gender by our Lord.
Grace and Peace,
Jim Click here to reply to this post
what about?
Posted On: 03/27/08 12:59:04 AM
Age 44, NH
As I states in this article. Women may serve in any area that does not violate the standards I mentioned. As far as "Deaconess," That word means servant or minister in broad sense. Every Christian is a minister in the sense that we are called to be ministers of reconciliation through sharing the gospel, and in "ministering" to each other. Having said that, the office of Pastor/Elder/Deacon is by God's Word in the pastoral letter of 1 Tim. reserved for men. I made it very clear that this has nothing to do with worth or ability. It has everything to do with God ordained order and authority. as usual, I know I will be called names for standing against the liberal tide but I stand anyway.
-Dr. David M. Berman Click here to reply to this post
Funny Thing 2
Posted On: 03/29/08 08:42:27 AM
Age 40, PA
I noticed that you didn't address the reference to Phoebe in 1 Corinthians where she is called a deacon...
Grace and Peace,
Jim Click here to reply to this post
Phebe or Phoebe
Posted On: 03/30/08 12:41:49 AM
Age 52, GA
I suggest avoiding the NLT, in most versions she is referred to as a servant in the church. I prefer the KJV myself. Yours in Christ, Porter +++ Click here to reply to this post
Sweet
Posted On: 04/01/08 06:03:58 AM
Age 26, IN
Sweet. So we pick an English version not based on whether it's accurate, but rather based on whether or not it agrees with our preconceived leanings :) Click here to reply to this post
re: sweet
Posted On: 04/03/08 10:16:17 PM
Age 52, GA
My notions are not preconceived my young and unlearned detractor. The definition of a deacon is clear in 1 Tim. 3:8-13. Study your Bible, and "rebuke not an elder" (1 Ti. 5:1) until you're way past wet behind the ears. Click here to reply to this post
Actually the Rendering is from the Original Language
Posted On: 04/02/08 07:02:02 AM
Age 40, PA
My friend, she is called a deacon from the original language, Greek and the English that does not reference her as a deacon is inaccurate. Click here to reply to this post
actual rendering
Posted On: 04/03/08 10:27:29 PM
Age 52, GA
My friend, see my above response to sweetness. Scripture is the final exegeter and arbiter of this trivial dispute. St. Paul clearly defines the qualifications for a deacon, and unless Phebe is a man and the husband of one wife, she does not qualify. No doubt this is why the learned scholars and translators of old, translated diakonos as servant, when they described our dear departed sister Phebe. Click here to reply to this post
Yes, the Bible is the Final and Ultimate Authority
Posted On: 04/04/08 05:47:47 PM
Age 40, PA
My dear brother, your understanding of the original Greek is obviously quite limited so I will end with this. The culture has determined that interpretation, not the language or the qualifications of God through other writings. Your opinion is yours and no one can take it from you but your opinion is based not on knowledge of either His word or the Greek. See you in heaven.
Grace and Peace,
Jim
PS Before you attempt to "spank" a younger person, please become learned yourself so you may not think more of yourself than you ought. You make an accusation against another person when you yourself have the log in your eye. Click here to reply to this post
re: snide sarcastic rebuke to an elder
Posted On: 04/10/08 11:35:05 PM
Age 52, GA
I repeat my younger and self-professed much learned detractor. The definition of a deacon is clear in 1 Tim. 3:8-13. Study your Bible, and "rebuke not an elder" (1 Ti. 5:1). Your response makes no sense, you agree that scripture is the final authority, then rebuke me in direct contradiction to it. According to Strong's, diakonos is defined more than one way - a servant, an attendant, a deacon, a waiter. The early translators determined the best definition for Phebe was servant. Are you better than they? Will you repent of your prideful arrogance? If you are still confused, and see no reason to repent of your attack against me, you are welcome to write me at fullgospel@dadsforchrist.org. I will try to help you understand the danger and folly of not rightly dividing the Word. There must be some other underlying reason why you do not wish to repent of this illegitimate stand you've taken. Do you have women deacons in your church? Is your pastor a woman? Or are you simply stubborn and prideful? May the Holy Spirit of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, guide you and keep you. Porter +++ Click here to reply to this post
Funny Thing In Corinthians
Posted On: 03/26/08 10:32:20 PM
Age 40, PA
Who is called a "deacon" (not deaconess) in 1 Corinthians 16? The Greek is deacon and is the male form not the female form deaconess.
Why was Priscilla allowed to teach Apollos a more excellent way if women are barred from holding authority over a man?
In 1 Tim 3 we find the Greek meaning to be either women or wives. Although it could be wives, it seems strange that only elders' wives need to be so godly but not deacons wives. Pliny the Younger wrote to Trajan in about 112 AD that there were deaconesses that were accused of being Christians and tortured properly. The early church, as far as we can tell, understood that there were deaconesses of the church who obviously worked alongside deacons (both being servants).
I agree that Elders and Deacons are males by definition so a woman cannot be a man and thus cannot be an elder or deacon. Since a pastor is not an office different from elder, there is no distinction between pastor and elder.
I did notice that Eph 5.21 is missing from your quotations of Scripture above.
Grace and Peace,
Jim Click here to reply to this post
Funny thing in your response
Posted On: 03/28/08 12:44:43 AM
Age 52, GA
First of all you ask why was Priscilla allowed to teach Apollos, but you skipped one very important aspect, I guess for the purposes of argument. You do not find Priscilla mentioned anywhere in scripture alone, she is always mentioned along with Aquila, and is initially identified as Aquila's wife. Scripture clearly states that "they took him unto [them], and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly." Priscilla being Aquila's helpmeet, was clearly there to help as she should have. Scripture does not contradict itself, and this passage no way indicates a violation of 1 Tim. 2:12, as the woman in the response above (A Closer look) clearly does in admonishing Dr. Berman. Click here to reply to this post
Priscila
Posted On: 03/29/08 08:34:44 AM
Age 40, PA
No, I did not ignore or exclude Aquila for any reason at all because it is a matter of having authority over a man or teaching a man. If it is not proper for a woman to hold authority over a man or to teach a man (and not children or other women as you mentioned in your article)then it was wrong for Priscilla to have taught Apollos. The principle is the key, not the fact that she was with her husband. f being with her husband made it OK to teach a man then pastor's wives are permitted to teach men today as long as they are teaching with their husbands. That also means that the woman has a position of authority (all teachers have authority over the student)over the man or men being taught. We can't have it both ways.
Grace and Peace,
Jim Click here to reply to this post
discernment
Posted On: 03/30/08 01:24:58 PM
Age 52, GA
Seems you have a bit of a problem with discernment and rightly dividing the Word, my younger brother in Christ. First of all, you are responding to Porter from Georgia, not Dr. Berman. Secondly, the Lord God, is not the author of confusion. Exegesis, is a bit of science and art, but is ultimately discerned by a combination of the Holy Spirit, and the plain clarity of scripture. So for you to extrapolate a different conclusion from Priscilla's role in helping Aquila while instructing Apollos, brings you in clear contradiction with 1 Tim. 2:12. Now which is right, your supposition, or the plain admonition of 1 Tim. 2:12? I believe I'll stick with clear scripture over your supposition. By the way, are you trying to justify sitting in a congregation led by a woman? Or some Bible study you participate in? No doubt someone ignorant of scripture can be introduced to it by a woman, a sister in Christ, but ultimately the deeper things for a man's instruction comes from another male that is steeped in knowledge of the Word. Peace and joy, Porter +++ Click here to reply to this post
Presupposition?
Posted On: 04/02/08 07:08:20 AM
Age 40, PA
Both taught Appolos, not just one of them my friend. That isn't presupposition, that is what the original language says. The one with the presupposition is you. The 1 Tim reference speaks of usurped authority, not any authority. Greek scholars know this. It isn't dependent upon an English rendering but upon the original language our Lord used to give us the command.
So the "plain clarity of Scripture" is at odds with your presuppositions.
The problem here is the cultural barrier of the culture and the church since that time gets in the way of Scripture, not the other way around. Click here to reply to this post
I trust all the women who attend your church have their heads covered - or do you a way to explain that away, even though it is a clear admonition of scripture? Yes, be careful how you exegete and exposit scripture - but also be careful about the bias you bring to it as you decide which is etched is stone and which can be explained away as culture of the time. Click here to reply to this post
Amen!!
Posted On: 03/26/08 05:23:25 PM
Age 49, IL
As a woman, I am in agreement because this is what God's word says. There are many who claim to have gifts of prophecy, teaching, etc., that want to 'override' God's word because they believe that's what God has called them to do {isn't that how it all started? Did God really say?...} Whenever you go against God's word, you sin, disobedience is sin. It doesn't get any plainer!! This stems from Genesis 3:16b- 'Your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you'. Women want to be in charge, but that blatantly goes against God's order of creation. We are to be gentle and quiet spirits, for this is pleasing to God. We can and should proclaim the gospel to the lost, but to take it any farther is extremely dangerous. The feminism movement has warped the minds of many; I know the Father loves me just as much as He loves any man, and I accept my role is different than a man's. I also know my role is just as important as a man's. The charismatic movement has led many women down the wrong road. Please, always be a good berean and 'search the scriptures daily', praying for wisdom, knowledge, and understanding, and applying what God gives you to your life. Too many women let emotions and feelings guide their decisions, forgetting we must worship Him in spirit and in truth. God bless you, Dr. Berman, for bringing to light this wonderful truth from Almighty God! May God richly bless you. Click here to reply to this post
Amen
Posted On: 03/27/08 05:26:37 PM
Age 57, AR
I am not a charasmatic, I am a Southern Baptist. I do not believe the bible says we as women are to stand on the sidelines and watch. We have been given the Holy Spirit in measure for certain gifts, to be used for the benefit and growth of the church. A woman can teach women, a woman can write curriculum, etc. If you take the spiritual gifts test, you will find that Prophet, Exhorter, Pastor/Shepard, Giving, Serving, Mercy, and teaching are there. There are a couple of motivatinal gifts everyone has. I have Prophet/teacher. All that means is that, the person with that gift is driven to speak the truth, God's word. It's sad that many people think that we can be teacher's and have all the other gifts, but leave out Prophet and Pastor/Shepard. They are not the same for women as they are for men, obviously. I would encourage you to take the gifts test at www.churchgrowth.org. It isn't charasmatic. Click here to reply to this post
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