“Comparing contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis is increasingly commonplace." --U.S. State Department report on antisemitism, 2007.
Let’s talk about the Nazis. There should have already been more than enough discussion about this in the more than half-century since Adolf Hitler’s bunker fell in 1945. There have been hundreds and thousands of books, articles, speeches, and so on about what is commonly known as the Holocaust.
But apparently it hasn’t been enough, or well enough understood.
The Nazis were not just mean people. They had an explicit doctrine of being superior human beings and of the Jews and others (especially Slavs and non-white peoples, except for their ally, Japan,) of being sub-humans who should be wiped out. Homosexuals and Gypsies would all be killed. Germany would rule the world.
This does not resemble Zionism. To put it bluntly, Zionism as an ideology has absolutely no interest in the world as a whole. It focuses only on building a Jewish state in the land of Israel. It has no interest in defining any other group of people, no global perspective. It has never even argued that Jews are better but only that Jews are a people with the same rights as other peoples. The concept is on asserting Jewish equality, not superiority.
There is, however, an ideology which does have a lot in common with Nazism, though there are also of course differences. Radical Islamism claims that other religions are inferior, that the people who hold them are evil, that Jews and Christians are evil, and that Islam should rule the world. The Hamas Charter quotes a source on this point: “You are the best community that has been raised up for mankind….Ignominy shall be their portion” of non-Muslims unless they convert to Islam.”
If it doesn’t seek the extinction of all Jews in the world, it favors the elimination of at least half (those in Israel) and the large part of the other half that supports Israel. The Hamas Charter says that only by killing all the Jews can the messianic era come and that Jews are the cause of all the world’s problems. Oh, yes, and it also calls Israel a “Nazi-like society.”
Mind you, these are the people controlling the Gaza Strip, firing rockets daily at Israel, teaching their children by television and in the classroom that killing Jews is their highest duty and honor, sending gunmen to murder Jewish students deliberately, and then celebrating that fact.
Let’s return, however, to the original and self-described Nazis to get a sense of what it means to have a Nazi policy.
My father’s family comes from the village of Dolginov which was in Poland, a few miles from the Russian border. Most of the inhabitants were Jews. By 1941, there were nearly 5,000 Jews there, about half of them refugees from the part of Poland already under German rule. On June 22, 1941, the Germans invaded the USSR and they entered Dolginov six days later. No one in Dohinov had a gun. No one fired a single shot at a German soldier.
What was the Nazi policy? All the Jews were forced into a ghetto. On March 3, 1942, the Germans murdered the rabbi and 22 other men. On March 28, about 800 Jews were killed. Between April 29 and May 1, all the rest of the Jewish inhabitants, except for a few who were kept temporarily as workers, were shot and thrown into a big ditch. The rest were murdered on May 21. Of 5,000 Jews then living into town, 96 percent were killed deliberately and systematically. And if the Nazis had their way it would have been 100 percent.
The only survivors were about 200 people who had fled into the forest, wandered for days, and finally had the luck to meet up with a Red Army patrol. They were taken to safety in Siberia for the rest of the war. Virtually all of them came to Israel, where they rebuilt their lives.
Today, these people and their descendants have the privilege of being compared to the Nazis by large parts of the world, including many who enjoy privileged lives in democratic countries.
This is my great aunt’s family on my grandfather’s side. Haya Doba Rubin, her husband Aharon Perlmutter, and their two sons, Haim who was 12 years old and Jacob who was 10 years old were murdered. No survivors.
This is my great uncle’s family on my grandmother’s side. Samuel Grosbein married Rivka Markman and they had two children, Leah Rivka, 18 years old, and Lev, 23 years old. All of them were murdered on the same day. No survivors.
Here is the family of my great aunt on my grandmother’s side. Rahel Grosbein married Yirimayahu Dimenshtein and they had two children, Moshe, 21 years old and Tova, 16 years old. The first three were murdered on the same day. Only Tova survived because she had fled into the forest.
That is what a Nazi policy is like. Multiply that by six million for the Jews alone and more for the Poles, Gypsies, homosexuals, and others.
Let’s compare this with a conventional Western democratic war-fighting policy. The goal here is to defeat the enemy army but it has been permissible to strike against the economy and infrastructure as well. There is no intent to kill civilians but they may be hit by accident. During World War Two, U.S. and British warplanes engaged in carpet bombing of German and Japanese cities as well as factories where civilian workers were employed. Tens of thousands of French civilians were killed in raids on occupied France.
To my knowledge, no Allied soldiers were punished for killing civilians by accident or through carelessness. Nobody was court-martialed for shooting prisoners.
Israeli policy is far more careful to avoid injuring civilians. Most airstrikes are against specific buildings or even individual automobiles. Civilian bystanders have been killed yet far fewer proportionately than has been true for, say, the U.S. or French armies. Soldiers have been tried and punished for actions which, at least in the recent past, would have been ignored in Western armies.
There is no instance I know of in which Israeli units opened unlimited fire on a crowd, even when rocks were being thrown or shots fired against them. Individual targets were picked out. Unarmed people were killed but not deliberately and in small numbers. If Israelis were as their enemies picture them to be, there would be hundreds of Palestinians killed in a single day, tens of thousands in a year.
Thus, even if Israel has been held to a double standard, its record has been better than that of even Western counterparts. Only by lying about that record—the norm in the Arabic-speaking world and all-to-common in the Western one—can it be made to seem terrible.
We need only remember what the Nazis believed and did, what Israelis believe and do, and what their enemies believe and do. It should not be so hard to understand the distinctions.
Barry Rubin is director of the Global Research in International Affairs (GLORIA) Center http://www.gloriacenter.org and editor of the Middle East Review of International Affairs Journalhttp://meria.idc.ac.il. His latest books are The Truth About Syria (Palgrave-Macmillan) and The Long War for Freedom: The Arab Struggle for Democracy in the Middle East (Wiley).
Professor Barry Rubin, Director, Global Research in International Affairs (GLORIA) Center <http://www.gloriacenter.org> Editor, Middle East Review of International Affairs (MERIA) Journal <http://meria.idc.ac.il> Editor, Turkish Studies
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In trying to justify the geopolitical state of Israel, this article tries to fuel hatred of Islam, which is not a good thing for Christians to do. We are not getting all the historical facts about the progession of Jewry in Europe and Russia from this article or any other aritcle Rubin has put up on this website. He often says it is foolish to think that there can be peace between Israel and the other nations of the mid east. So does he recommend the current gospel of bombs and bullets the the U.S. now uses in its mid east diplomacy? If you think the U.S. has some justification for military action in the mid east, then my suggestion to you is to "come out of" that thinking. George Cancilla Click here to reply to this post
Bomb, yes!
Posted On: 03/20/08 09:21:49 AM
Age 47, MO
I for one advocate bombs and bullets. Strength responsibly utilized is a gift. To have the strength and not use it or to not use it responsibly is a sin. It is proof that we don't truly love those we are tasked to protect. It is proof that we don't really understand evil. It is also proof that we don't trust God to judge rightously. We fear conflict and acting decisively. Our prof is Vietnam. We would easily have won the war in months if we had faught to win. Instead we played politics, bombed irresponsibly, stopped bombing for a year, then engaged in "rolling thunder", and allowed the media to tell Americans how horible the military is. Politicians killed thousands of Americans through negotiation instead of being leaders. We, and Israel, have a leadership problem. Real men in power don't exist in the west. John Click here to reply to this post
God's superpower?
Posted On: 03/21/08 11:15:22 AM
Age 48, CA
Can you open your Bible and back up your assertations? Streanth is a gift? Where does it say that? There is no such thing as "Gods superpower" or "God's Goliath"
By any miltary analyst, there is no way the ancient Isrealis should have won. Jerico was one of the most impenatrable cities of it's day. the Philistines were the "Superpower" Of their time. With Gideon, God himself wittled down his army "Lest it be said that you won on your own strength" Goliath was vanquished by David. You want to bring up Sampson? All the movies about him use body builders to play the role but in reality, he was no larger than average, there is even speculation that he looked very frail. It was not as though his muscled shrivelled when his hair was cut and bulked up again as his hair grew. His power came from God and by just looking at him, one would not have known. Gos allows superpowers ti rise in order that he may strike them down with lesser adversaries in order to prove to the world that HE is in control. Isreals problem is their lack of faith in God and their faith in the western wonder weapons they can buy. We are more like Babylon under the curse of Jerimiah. "Your men shall become like women!" And we cower behind our wonder weapons in the same manner the babylonians cowered behind thier technology of the time. Click here to reply to this post
Answer to all your posts
Posted On: 03/24/08 10:58:08 AM
Age 47, MO
Friend: your error is that you think projecting power is a sin, while defensive posturing is not. You fail to realize that ALL governments are instituted by God and ALL things happen with His knowledge- even this conversation between you and me. Life is a gift, power is a gift, slavery is a gift, because in ALL things we are to USE them to the GLORY of God. Yet, you think posturing for freedom around the world is a sin and that all men should not be free but be in bondage to a few rulers. This is where you and I disagree, I think it is a right, a responsibility, and a priviledge to fight, promote, defend, advocate, and remove from power dictators who do not believe that ALL men are created EQUAL. Man is not to rule over or enslave any other man and these American values of personnal responsibility result in democracy and debautury. America's problem is not remembering where are freedoms come from (God) and thinking they come from our own decisions that has led America into depravity. You and I both want the same thing, I think, but I believe you to be errant in your thinking (as you do I). So, we will simply disagree. John Click here to reply to this post
The key word here is "I Believe"
Posted On: 03/25/08 10:03:09 AM
Age 48, CA
God institutes government, not us and our wonder weapons made with money we don't have. You express you beliefs but cannot back them up Biblicaly. Nohwere in the Bible is any nation called to engage in a war of liberation. Even the freedom you espouse is not Biblical. The freedom Christ promises is freedom from sin. The freedom we stand for is the right for everyone to do what is right or wrong in thier own eyes. The world doesn't want out hanburgers & heartburn. They don't want our drugs, teen sex, abortion and gangs. What you preach is what Peter wans against "Promising freedom while they themselves are slaves to depravity." Click here to reply to this post
Can you show me that in the Bible?
Posted On: 03/21/08 09:56:36 AM
Age 48, CA
The late Dr. J Vernon McGee once preached "The Lord punished this nation in Southeast Asia for going in there with bombs instead of Bibles!". Exactly what would we have won? A corrupt puppet government? We lost Viet Nam the day we sided with the French in reclaiming thier colony. Ho ChiMinh was our ally during WW2. We armed him to fight the Japanese and when we sided with the French in re claiming Viet Nam as thier colony, the Vietnamese people felt utterly betrayed. Bomb the Middles East? Into what? Our teen sex? Homosexual rights? Abortion? Drugs? Even within the walls of our Churches we can't control these vices and we want to "Liberate" The world into this? There is no gospel of bombs & bullets. The fact that we are currently in our 6th year trying to subdue a nation the size of one of our states with 4,000 dead, 30,000+ wounded, 1.2 trillion dollars spent and no end in sight if proof that The Lord has not delivered you enemy at your feet. Click here to reply to this post
Vietnam
Posted On: 03/21/08 06:49:15 AM
Age 61, MO
In Vietnam there was nothing to win, but much to steal. It was never a declared war, but a contrived political conflict from the beginning. Yes. Politicians killed many people with that conflict. The Americans had no right to force themselves on those people. It is a stretch to say bombing was done in self defense, when the Aamericans were the aggressors to begin with. In the mid east the U.S. is once again playing the bully of politics and economics in the name of protecting. George Cancilla Click here to reply to this post
Clarification
Posted On: 03/24/08 10:35:43 AM
Age 47, MO
I didn't say we should have gone to Vietnam. I said that we didn't fight to win but faught a political battle, costing many American lives. And no, Americans were not the original aggressors, it was the comunists. John Click here to reply to this post
Win what?
Posted On: 03/25/08 10:05:51 AM
Age 48, CA
The bottom line was that the government we set up in Viet Nam, like the ones we set up in Baghdad and Kabul has more people willing to die against it than for it.
We lost Viet nam the moment we sided with the French in re claiming thier colony. From that moment on, we were the western clonialists noboby was willing to fight for. Click here to reply to this post
comparing Israeli policy to that of the nazis is founded in nothing but ignorance. If I were surrounded on all sides by people who wanted to destroy me,I would take any and all action to safeguard my security. Click here to reply to this post
On Democracy....
Posted On: 03/19/08 11:18:41 AM
Age 48, CA
Why is it that neocon christians boast of democracy? I challenfge you! Open your Bible and show me where the will of the people aka "Democracy" is EVER spoken of favorably much less called for. Every story in the Bible where the will of the people is ever exressed has been in a negative light. In the Garden of Eden, God was voted out. In the time of Noah, only Noah himself and his family "Voted" In favor of God. Moses was "Democratically voted out of office" On at least two occastions. God Himslef had to cause an earthquake to open the ground ans swallow the rebels. The Book of Judges concludes with "Everybody did what was right or wrong in thier own eyes."
"The will of the people" Under Samual was to have a King like those of the other nations. And finally, probably the only time in his entire career he went by the polls, Pilate sent Christ to the Cross.
Jesus warned :No King goes to war without first counting the cost." "Your" christian (Lower case intended) president simply ignores the economic flank and continues to charge the war to the national debt while continuing to increase socail spending. Jesus warned "Those who exalt themselves shall be humbled" As we run out of money and wannabes eager for triger time, we indeed are being humbled. Click here to reply to this post
It is they who toss around that word all the time. We are practicing the same false doctrine Peter warned about "Promising freedom while they themselves are slaves to depravity" Click here to reply to this post
Abbey Hoffman Want-to-be's
Posted On: 03/20/08 08:09:57 AM
Age 51, GA
How Sad. Here are two (48 from CA and ol' George from MO)perfect examples of what will happen to people that never figure out that all human rebellion is ultimately against a Father that loves us. These two came here looking for a fight and a reaction that might make them feel justified for just a few minutes...and then that never-ending anger is back. Come on fellows, don't you think you're a little old to be using words like "neocon" or "gitmo" or "bombs and bullets". You're both pretty transparent (as all rebellious children are) and your self-loathing insecurities are pitiful. George, did you "peak" out in the sixties? Did you have a couple of years that you felt that you were a part of something? Are you going to spend the rest of your days trying to get that back? And 48 in CA, did you have big brother that was a hippie that made a stand by not bathing? Or maybe some self-righteous "Christian" was the only hypocrite that you were able to find, giving you justification for hating all Christians. You won't admit it, but I'd bet I'm pretty close to your stories. 48 in CA, you pointed out to us that you didn't use a capital c in the word Christian on purpose. Boy, you showed us what a rebel you are! Do you think maybe you've caused Christ Jesus to rethink His whole Holy Self-promotion? I used capital letters on purpose. How many thousands of times do you two reckon you've ranted about Christians being judgemental? In your eyes, have there ever been any hypocrites except Christians? I would ask YOU to not judge all Christians by your hand-picked examples but you would actually have to become completely different people to not do that. Only my Precious Savior could do that (change you). How do I know? Because, before I asked for and received His rescue back to my Father, I was one of you. What a slow, painful and lonely death. Click here to reply to this post
Rebellion?
Posted On: 03/23/08 06:58:42 PM
Age 61, MO
It is not a question of rebellion, but rather a questioning of iniquity wherever we find it. In the case of the current U.S. government, the corruption and lies are rampanat and flagrant. It is not rebellion without cause to call out such error, but rather it is petitioning for Constitutional government. Righteous indignation is not the same as anger. George Cancilla Click here to reply to this post
Not to judge?
Posted On: 03/21/08 10:01:43 AM
Age 48, CA
And you draw a picture of me based on your neocon mindset. All people who don't waive the flag and bless the bombs we are dropping over there are hippies? Refusing to waive the flag and hate those you hate is rebellion? I suppose if your were arounnd during the time of King Ahab, you would be saying the same thing about the real Prophets. Hate to rain on your parade, but Christ does not fly the American Flag and he will not be returning on Air Force One. Click here to reply to this post
There was a positing on the web titles "Why we no longer win our wars." Of the 51 reasons given, one was "Back in 1945, it was easy to identify the enemy by their Nazi Style Helmets. Today, we are the ones wearing Nazi style helmets." Abu Garib, "Club" Gitmo. In Haditha, not only was it established that we practiced "Kill the usual suspects!" and "Every room with a broom" But it was affirmed as a viable policy. Several conservative talk show hosts Joined in the proclamation "I don't care if thay machine gunned a newborn baby in it's cradle! If our Marines killed it, it deserved it!" As we look more like the Nazis, we act more like them too. Only we do our :Dirty work from 20,000 feet up and our suicide bombers have electronic brains. Click here to reply to this post
what?
Posted On: 03/19/08 04:22:42 PM
Age 44, IL
Am I the only one trying to decipher what your'e point seems to be.What do your posts have to do with the story in question? Click here to reply to this post
re
Posted On: 03/19/08 10:14:49 PM
Age 31, IA
I've asked the same question. This person has made some very good points - I just wish her/his posts were a little more coherent. Click here to reply to this post
Now about Isreal.......
Posted On: 03/19/08 10:57:02 AM
Age 48, CA
Polls and surveys indicate that 2/3 of all Isrealis consider themselves Jewish by blood and not by Faith. The Hassidic Jews are the direct decendents of the Pharasees and continue to act as such. As Easter approaches, Angry Jews continue to be offended at the though that their forfathers did the dirty deed. My own experience with Jewish people has been to try and connect with them using the OT. At least here one should be able to establish common ground. Not so! When one confronts a Jew as to how he can support homosexuality, abortion, easy divorce, and other social issues of the day when Moses commanded otherwise, the classic response is "Well, Moses never had access to modern science!"
One Conservtive Jewish talk ahow host even went so far as to confess that if Moses were in charge of Isreal today, he would end up executing half it's population.
Isreal, and the entire Jewish population is in the same state is was under the likes of King Ahab and the other bad kings of Isreal.
To assure the Jews that they are God's choisen people, can do no wrong, and that God will grant them victory over their enemies without having to repent has been the teaching of false prophets. The neocon church is parroting the false prophets of old. Click here to reply to this post
Lets include all of the facts
Posted On: 03/19/08 10:08:56 AM
Age 48, CA
First, you and many others proclaim that the Nazis were an abnormal evil in an otherwise good world. I do believe Scripture teaches that the entire world is fallen. The Nazis therfore were a normal evil in a normally evil world. They were no worse (And not better) Than many of the ancient Kings in the Bible.
Next, since both of my parents grew up in Nazi Germany (My father was one of the few Germans who came back from Stalingrad) I can see things from thier perspective. What your "Good democratic nations" Did to Germany following WW1 was just as evil as anything the Nazis did. As we are willing to sign away our rights to an ever more expanding federal government bacause of 9-11 imagine what we would be willing to do if we had 1000% infaltion, 65% unemployment, rampant crime, and no hope in sight.
Third, You are a liar! The fire bombing of Dresdyn, Colonge, Tokyo and Osaka along with the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were deliberate attacks on civilians in order to terrorise them into surrender. In Hioroshima, the Army base was 22 miles away and totally unscathed by the bomb. In Tokyo, not only did we drop Whit phosphorus on peoples homes, but the second wave of bombers sprayed the fleeing civilians with diesel fuel. In Kosovo, we hit a new low. It maks the fiorst time in our history when we ONLY bombed defenselss civilians and avoided any target that could shoot back. Click here to reply to this post
Kindred Spirits
Posted On: 03/20/08 04:10:45 PM
Age 51, GA
Is it possible that the some of same abuses that made little Adolf Hitler a Jew hating monster the same ones that warped you? Click here to reply to this post
Warped?
Posted On: 03/21/08 10:11:34 AM
Age 48, CA
The Treaty of versales created the monster you call the Nazis. America was so disgusted with how Europe handled germany after the war nobody wanted to go back.
Once again, you preach a false doctrine that the Nazis were some abnormal evil. As you advocate dropping more bombs on more people who refuse to trade in thier Qurans for our condoms, as you cheer the Marines machine gunning the ususal suspects, as you call for more wars to impose more godless western values upon other nations, you are acting very much like the Nazis. Click here to reply to this post
Send Flowers
Posted On: 03/20/08 09:38:53 AM
Age 47, MO
You and I have talked about this before, but here goes again. In regard to Dresdyn, why do you think they had the right to be isolated? Why should they live in peace while their govt perpetrated such evil in their names? You think that when God judges America, you yourself will be spared? Your ignornace and spin is apparent as you also heap condemnation on the military as a whole, for the sins of a few. But yes, you yourself are truly a pacifist and a lover. It is apparent by your words. John Click here to reply to this post
When did you serve?
Posted On: 03/21/08 11:03:06 AM
Age 48, CA
"Anyone who cries out for war should present his own body with which to fight it"
Teddy Roosevelt Click here to reply to this post
According to the late Col. Hackworth, after the civilian wannabes and worshipers of the military. Those who serve in the two non combatant service forces make up the next worst group of chickenhawks. (The navy being the other, it is where a lot of people go to escape combat and serve carrying a mop instead of a rifle)
Even in the other two services, the worst "Posers" are those whose MOS places them in the rear with the gear. Combat veterans don't share the same views. I myself left the Submarine service because there had to be more ti life than endlessly spit shinnning for the next petty inspection. EOD was a totaaly different experience and when we had to dive under our forst ship for real, in search of a real bomb, I now know how combat vets feel. Back when I was an eager wannabe myself, a Nam Vet slammed me against a wall and warned "Pray for war one more time I'll kill you!" Click here to reply to this post
final post
Posted On: 03/26/08 02:15:28 AM
Age 47, MO
One thing for sure, I've enjoyed this little conversation because you are very entertaining. You pride yourself in the fact that you were a sausage in a tube for 26 years and call yourself a warrior. Yea, you've seen the hell of war. I can't stop laughing! John Click here to reply to this post
You are a terrible judge of character
Posted On: 03/21/08 10:39:46 AM
Age 48, CA
One who refused to fight your wars is hardly a pacifist. Did you ever serve? It is amazing how those who never served and have no risk are the loudest voices calling for war. Being a 26 year veteran, I am hardly a pacifist. What I am is one who is confident enough to defend myself that i don't have to send kids to a counbtry 8,000 miles away so I can live an easy life. Also, knowing what it takes to project power, I also know that the threat as you describe it is a blatanbt lie. We are not in any danger of losing our freedom. No nation is able to take us over. our own state of godless decadence poses a greater threat from withoin than any enemy you want to bomb into out decadent ways. Click here to reply to this post
You just made my point
Posted On: 03/21/08 10:07:02 AM
Age 48, CA
When we slaughter civilians by the tens of thousands, it called "Strategic Bombing' When they return the favor, it torrorism> Likewise, do you thinbk you have the right to rant from the safety of yout home as you belss the bomnbs that are being dropped over there? Either targeting civilians is a viable act of war or it is not. And if you are going to boatr about how Isreal avoids civilian casualties, you are a liar. There were no rocket launchers in Beruit and yet they bombed it, not only with smart bobs but with cluster bombs. Cluster bombs are designed to kill people so the IAF is just as much of a terror organization as any other. To bless Isreal in the manner of the false prophets is no blessing at all. Click here to reply to this post
You're not making a valid argument
Posted On: 03/20/08 09:13:55 AM
Age 32, TX
The author is stating that the outrages of warfare by the West, first of all, are not comparable to Nazi purges, and Israel is much more careful than the West has been to not kill civilians even at great expense to its own soldiers, and yet is maligned in the press. It's a tiny nation of 5 million surrounded by 200 million bent on its destruction and eradication. Secondly, your argument that Israel is no longer God's chosen people because of their sin and self-righteousness is not valid, because God's election and calling for a people is not based on their righteousness but God's righteousness. He has promised numerous times in both testaments to restore Israel and bring them back to himself, although individual Jews do die and go to hell if they don't repent and trust in Jesus (Jeshua) as Christ (Messiah) alone for their salvation. You should be very careful and read scripture again before you make blasting liberal arguments that come only from the liberal press and not from fact or the Word of God.
I pray that you'll do so. Click here to reply to this post
Outrages of Warfare
Posted On: 03/23/08 07:11:56 PM
Age 61, MO
The outrages of warfare by the West far surpass those of NAZI Germany. The geopolitical state of Israel being established in 1948 has nothing to do with any Biblical prophecy. The "Israel" that God blesses is both the old and new Testament saints who have trusted in and submitted to God: the remnant from every generation. It has nothing to do with an ethnic group called "Jews." George Cancilla Click here to reply to this post
I have read Scripture
Posted On: 03/21/08 01:24:01 PM
Age 48, CA
And you assertation that God is on their side and will grant them victory no matter what their current state is false prophecy. It is you sir who needs to read Scripture. Click here to reply to this post
