A well-known Christian leader was asked on a major secular talk show if people who do not trust in Jesus, (Jews and Muslims were given as examples of people who are devoutly religious, but don't follow Jesus), would go to hell when they die. Being known for its exclusivist claims (i.e. that Jesus Christ is the only way to salvation and eternal life: John 14:6), the host wanted to push the issue with his guest to see if he would make a universal statement about who will, and who will not, be in heaven. The guest repeatedly avoided answering the question directly, choosing to say that those decisions are up to God and not to us. He repeatedly answered tough questions with, “I don't know.”
With this in mind, I had a chance to talk recently with Dr. D.A. Carson on a radio show about his contribution to a book entitled, Only One Way? Reaffirming the Exclusive Truth Claims of Christianity. I mentioned to him an argument that I read recently in a book by a popular Emergent Church (EC) author. (EC is a movement that claims that Postmodernism, the step-child of Modernism, should be adopted as a new paradigm or system that we follow for church life.)
The Emergent author was saying that it is arrogant to claim that we can know who will be in heaven and who won't be, or that we can know the truth, or that we can even define what it means to say that Jesus is the only way.
Because of this, the EC author has been accused of being a Relativist (there is no ONE way, all truth is relative) and a Universalist (everyone goes to heaven). However, in one of his books, he categorically denies relativism by saying: "(W)e believe that radical relativism is absurd and dangerous, as is arrogant absolutism."
I was initially shocked when I read this disclaimer because Postmodern writers often defend and extol relativism. In this statement, the author is deviating from traditional relativism in favor of a different paradigm I will soon explain.
Relativism Here is how the traditional Christian/Relativist argument could go:
Relativistic Assertion: "All religions are essentially the same. They are all equally valid truth claims, none is better than another."
Christian Assertion: "Jesus is The Way, The Truth, The Life. No one comes to the Father except through Him (John 14:6). Everyone who doesn't believe in and follow Jesus is eternally lost."
Relativistic Refutation: "You can't possibly claim that because you would have to have omniscient knowledge to make a universal assertion like that. In other words, you would need to take every single road to its end and discover that at the end of each road was an eternal hell, except for Christianity. You have not done that. You can't do that until you die, and even then, you may only know your own road. Therefore you are arrogant to make such claims."
(Do you see the “Fact/Value Dichotomy” here?)
On the surface, this Relativistic Assertion seems like a sensible argument but it contains a couple of major flaws.
1. The Relativistic Assertion is an EQUALLY absolutist, and in their words, "arrogant" statement. It assumes that they have been down every road and at the end they found that all religions are true and everyone goes to heaven (or is right). This, according to their own argument, is impossible. This is called a self-refuting argument.
2. They aren't usually content to say that ALL beliefs are equal and valid, because Christianity makes claims that are opposed to all other religions. Therefore, they usually say that all religions EXCEPT for Christianity are true. This is equally arrogant and absolutist. This argument draws the same line as Christianity, leaving some in and kicking some out, it just reverses the sides of who goes and who stays. It is not any more tolerant or open-minded, it is merely more tolerant and open-minded toward those who are not Christians.
Embracing Skepticism So...this Emergent author is creating a new category of argument that sounds very Christian and very humble. It goes like this:
The New Postmodern/Emergent Position: We do not claim to know absolutely who is right or wrong, or who will be in heaven or not in heaven. Any claim to know such things (which only God and not finite humans can know) is arrogant and anti-Christian. To be truly humble, the only correct answer is: “I don't know.”
Therefore, it is David Hume, the skeptic, who seems to be winning the day. “Truth is unknowable.”
They ultimately deny God's revelation. The good news is that the ultimate Metaphysical Reality has stepped into the Physical world and revealed to us The Truth (1 John 1:1).
Copyright 2007, by IsraelWayne. All Rights Reserved.
Israel Wayne was home educated and currently serves as Marketing Director for the national publicationHomeSchool Digest, and the site editor for www.ChristianWorldview.net. He is the author of the book, Homeschooling From A Biblical Worldview, published by Wisdom’s Gate. Israel and his wife Brook (also a homeschool graduate) have five young children. Write to: Wisdom's Gate, P.O. Box 374, Covert, MI49043. 1-800-343-1943 or www.WisdomsGate.org
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Are you still going on about Ivan Panin? I've explained this to you before--more than three times now. Just because a formula yields mathematical patterns doesn't make something true. All it proves is that there are patterns. Patterns are everywhere. Again, you could insert any text into Panin's formula and it will reveal a pattern. Google it yourself and stop embarrassing yourself with such nonsense. Or do you just not care about these facts as long as occasionally some people fall for it--you can fool some of the people some of the time...The bible is unverifiable not because of a lack of my efforts. It has nothing to do with me. When Moses goes up the mountain to receive the 10 commandments, how is this verified? Moses makes the claim but we only have his word for it. It's nothing but hearsay. Even if god did speak to him up there, how do we know that Moses didn't change things around to meet his own wishes? In other words, even by the bibles own rules (that all men a fallible) we can't trust the words to be wholly true--because they are written by men (sinners). I know that you believe and have faith that the Bible is true, but you are confusing belief with truth and faith with fact. Think about it. Click here to reply to this post
THIS IS NOT JUST ALGEGBRA
Posted On: 01/11/08 01:09:37 AM
Age 64, OH
Are you talking about what you know or what you think. You are just plain wrong about Panin. Panin checked all the great texts in Hebrew and Greek and found not one work except the Bible that had these patterns. Remember Panin was an atheist who was trying to prove the Bible was a work of man as you say. The Bible is the only text that Panin could find these patterns in. He found 43000 pages of patterns in the Bible and these were all checked for accuracy by a team of mathematicians. And Panins whole work went right over your head. I am afraid i am not impressed with nothing but your ability to be sarcastic. Yes everything in nature has mathematical patterns, EVERYTHING. But NOTHING that man has done HAVE THESE PATTERNS IN THEM IN THE RANDOM WAY THAT THE BIBLE DOES. Yet the Bible has these patterns. But the patterns could not have been planed by the men who wrote the Bible. Panin set out trying to duplicate them in a sentence and found it took forever and a day to do one sentence but then it did not say what he wanted it to say but it had a pattern. Panin concluded that the universe and the Bible were created by the same mathematician. And Panin knew that no man could create the universe so there had to be a God who created both. Panin knew math and was an atheist but the math proved to him that the Bible was written by God and Not man. Also Moses had the same patterns that Paul had 1400 years later. 40 different authors from uneducated fishermen to kings and farmers and all were more brilliant mathematicians than any who have ever lived by a factor of a googleplex. I have to apoligize for saying this went over your head. I scored the highest score in the math placement test at the local university then anyone has ever scored and math is easy for me. A person has nothing to do with the areas that they are gifted in and there is no shame at all with not being able to understand math of this order. However i have been able to explain it to quite a few high school students. Lou Click here to reply to this post
Texas sharpshooter fallacy
Posted On: 01/13/08 04:52:58 PM
Age 37, NY
The reason Panin didn't find patterns in Hebrew or Greek texts is because those findings were not his objective. Those with an interest in finding mathematical patterns in the Torah have found them. It's all a matter of how you set up the experiment. One could write a formula that shows a mathematical pattern in the Harry Potter books. This formula would undoubtedly not reveal patterns in the bible. But it doesn't prove or disprove either. Panin is guilty of the Texas sharpshooter fallacy. Click here to reply to this post
DO THE SAME WITH HOMERS WORK
Posted On: 01/14/08 12:41:41 PM
Age 64, OH
Here is the work of Ivan on the first verse of the Bible.
Ivan was aware that the Hebrew and the Greek language was the only two major languages that the characters stood for letters AND FOR NUMBERS. So he took the first verse of the Bible as numbers instead of letters and worked with them to see if these math patterns that was in all of life was in them. IN THE BEGINNING GOD CREATED THE HEAVENS AND THE EARTH. Ivan added up all the numbers in the three words of GOD - HEAVEN- EARTH. Ivan was struck by the fact that they added to 777 or 111x 7. Ivan took the verb Created and found that it was 203 or 29x7. Ivan took the 1st, last, and middle word and found that they added to 133 or 19x7. Ivan took all seven words of the verse( in the Hebrew there are 7 words in the verse not nine) and found that the 1st and last letters of all seven words added to 1393 or 199x 7. the total number of letters in these 7 words are 28 or 7x4. Now Ivan became struck by the fact that there were exactly seven words and not 6 or 8. Ivan found many other ways to add the letters and they were all divisable exactly by 7. Ivan was now shaking and went on to discover EVERY VERSE OF THE HEBREW AND THE GREEK IS JUST LIKE THAT AS FAR OF BEING FULL OF RANDOM MATHEMATICAL PATTERNS.
Ivan concluded that the Bible was NOT WRITTEN BY MAN AT ALL. BUT IT WAS WRITTEN BY THE SAME ONE WHO CREATED ALL OF NATURE. Panin could see that the same mathematician had created all of nature and written the Bible.
Now I challenge you to take the first sentence of any other Greek work of old and show the same as you claim. Lou Click here to reply to this post
silly
Posted On: 01/22/08 01:02:32 PM
Age 37, NY
Why did Ivan choose GOD-HEAVEN-EARTH? Why not IN-GOD-THE? Why the verb? Why the first middle and third words? Why not the second, forth and sixth? His method is arbitrary and silly. Only a fool would subcribe to such nonsense as this. Even if I were a believer would I fall for this one. Click here to reply to this post
GOD- HEAVEN-EARTH
Posted On: 01/22/08 06:10:07 PM
Age 64, OH
I did not explain this because I thought it was obvious. GOD - HEAVEN - EARTH are the nouns in the sentence. And CREATED is the verb. the nouns and the verbs are the main words in the sentence. So you see it was not silly at all. By the way you said this could be done with other Greek works; when can we expect to see your post showing us this is true. If you can not produce this then you should tell us that it can not be done. Awaiting your post. Lou Click here to reply to this post
Re: What?
Posted On: 01/04/08 10:53:50 AM
Age 32, MI
Dr. Francis A. Schaeffer said that believing in Relativism was like having your feet firmly planted in mid-air.
Ravi Zacharias has pointed out that because of the Law of Non-Contradiction it is possible that all known religions could be false, but it is not possible that they could all be true (because they have opposing and contradictory truth claims).
Ultimately for anything to be "true" or "false" there must be an objective standard that corresponds to reality. Discerning that objective standard is what is up for debate in the worldview smörgåsbord. Click here to reply to this post
What?
Posted On: 01/03/08 02:43:29 PM
Age 37, NY
Your Relativistic Assertion says "All religions are essentially the same. They are all equally valid truth claims." But what does that mean? I take this to mean that they all make truth claims. But how is one more valid than the other or how can they be equally valid. In fact they can't be considered valid at all. What they are is essentially claims of truth and nothing more. There is nothing to give the statements any validity--only the statements themselves. This is why they are called "truth claims" not "truth. Like Russell's celestial teapot-orbiting just outside our galaxy. Click here to reply to this post
THE PERCEPTION OF MAN DOES NOT CHANGE REALITY
Posted On: 01/04/08 01:14:25 PM
Age 64, OH
Your reasoning is not valid at all friend. If there is such a thing as TRUTH, and reality testifies to that every second of every day, then there is one TRUTH and anything that falls short of it is not true. To say that no one knows the TRUTH just because you do not know the TRUTH is vain and arrogant don't you agree. That is a foolish statement and no one should follow a fool. I am not calling you a fool but just say you made a foolish statement if you are saying no one can know the TRUTH or there is no such thing as TRUTH. If there is in fact a CREATOR and if the Bible is true then he promises to reveal Himself to those who will humble themselves and ask Him who he is instead of insisting that reality is what they say it is. I did as he asked and he did reveal Himself to me. Nothing that you can say can change that reality. If you call me a car I will NOT sleep in the garage tonight. You can not speak and even keep yourself from becoming bald. You can not even keep yourself from dying. Lou Click here to reply to this post
what
Posted On: 01/05/08 12:19:35 AM
Age 37, NY
I'm not calling you a fool but you foolishly misquoted my statements about the article. I never said there was no such thing as truth. I was merely stating that religions, in general, are statements that claim truth but are not actual truth. One book may claim that truth is that we humans were planted here by aliens in order to become their slaves in the future. Another book may claim that Jesus is the son of God sent here by him to save mankind. And still another book may claim that cigarette smoking is bad for your health. All these statements make truth claims. Only one is valid. Can you guess which one it is. Click here to reply to this post
A MAN CAN NOT KNOW ABOUT SOMETHING HE DOES NOT KNOW
Posted On: 01/05/08 08:34:57 AM
Age 64, OH
You admit that you do not know God and so say he does not exist. I say that you are being arrogant and foolish. For a man to say there is no God just because he does not know Him is ARROGANT. You can not know my experiences or knowledge. Just because you do not know God does not mean that I can not know God. What would you call any man who made claims about a man that he never met or did not know. You make claims about the Bible; have you ever read it. Even if you have read the whole Bible; would you want to be taught by a man that had read one math book. How do you think this man would teach calculus. He would be a fool don't you think to even attempt such a thing. Buy your own testimony you do not know God; but you think you are an expert on God. A man can not be an expert on something he knows nothing of. Maybe with the wisdom of a few more years you will become wise. Antony Flew said he was wrong about saying there was no God because Flew feels the evidence that science has provided is overwhelming in proving that there is a God. Flew used to hold your opinion but now is aware that he was wrong. He was also humble and courageous enough to even write a book to tell the world of his mistake. Lou Click here to reply to this post
no
Posted On: 01/08/08 12:46:29 AM
Age 37, NY
Actually all I'm saying is that religious texts such as the bible are unverifiable truth claims. I've said nothing about gods existence one one way or the other. You should read carefully what I say before jumping to such conclusions. Antony Flew? Is that an appeal to authority? Well, he may say he is wrong about something. But that doesn't make his or anyones new hypothesis correct simply because they believe the previous one false. Where is the logic in that? I don't question his sincerity however. Click here to reply to this post
HOLY BIBLE - WHOLLY TRUE
Posted On: 01/08/08 01:20:05 PM
Age 64, OH
I am sorry dear friend but you have made the very same argument again and that one is not valid. Just because you have not been able or not tried to verify the Bible as true does not mean that no one is able to verify the Bible as true. That argument is arrogant and not valid. Many have had the Bible proven to them as being true. Google Ivan Panin and read how he proved the Bible was true with math. As to Flew, I never claimed this to be an appeal of logic but it is only a testimony. And you did say that the book that said that "Jesus Christ is the Son of God" was not valid. Anyone who holds such an opinion does not know God and so I gave my reply to this. Lou Click here to reply to this post
WHY FOLLOW A MAN WHO ADMITS HE DOES NOT KNOW THE TRUTH
Posted On: 01/03/08 11:32:34 AM
Age 64, OH
Most of these men are being truthful in part of their statements; they do not know the truth. But they are terribly ARROGANT to say if they do not know the truth then no one else can know the truth. How can some be so foolish to follow a man who admits that he does NOT know the truth. Jesus was humble but yet claimed to not only know the truth but said He was the TRUTH. Jesus was so humble that even though he was God he made Himself nothing and died a criminals death. But he not only claimed to know the way, but said he was The WAY. Jesus is humble but yet said, "no one comes to The father except through Me". This is the man who I have chose, by grace, to follow. Lou Click here to reply to this post
Is Christianity Arrogant
Posted On: 01/03/08 09:01:12 AM
Age 61, MO
Christianity is about individuals who are surrendered to Christ. It is about humility. There is no room for arrogance. "Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves." (Philippians 2:3). We could often confuse confindence with arrogance. We have confidence when we know absolutely that something is right, or when we know how to do something very well. If we flaunt our knowledge or our talents, then we become arrogant. Just because we refuse to compromise what is right, does not mean that we are arrogant. George Cancilla Click here to reply to this post
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