I am in favor of church growth and mega-churches, IF the church growth is built on solid gospel preaching, telling the truth, exposing error, and protecting the sheep from the false teaching that now abound.Such mega-churches do exist today though some critics will say they are ALL employing marketing gimmicks that are questionable.I agree, some marketing tactics are not particularly healthy. I don't agree that all mega-churches should be suspect.
A big leader in the church-growth movement is WillowcreekChurch under the leadership of Pastor Bill Hybels. August 9 to 11 they had their annual Leadership Summit at their church.There were 80,000 in attendance, and the program was beamed into 176 sites via audiovisual technology.
This event troubles me and here's why.
One of the guests was former President Jimmy Carter.On the Willowcreek Web site it states, "Jimmy Carter has done more since retiring from the office of president than most people accomplish in a lifetime. The author of more than 20 books is recognized worldwide for his leading work in conflict resolution, diplomacy, and humanitarian work."
Conflict resolution?Hasn't Carter roamed the world bad-mouthing America and standing up for dictators? And what diplomacy?It has not been pro-American!His "diplomacy" when president was to let the Shah of Iran fall and welcome in the war on terror via the Ayatollah Khoumeini in 1979.He then bungled the rescue attempt of our hostages because he would not consult with Israel and get their advice on landing American helicopters in the Iranian desert.He so weakened our economy that only Ronald Reagan could pull the country back together. Those are elements of his "legacy" and diplomacy.
The Willowcreek Web site then goes on to list Carter's prominent books, but they leave off his outrageous book, "Palestine: Peace not Apartheid."Shortly after the book was released some months ago, twenty staff members of the CarterCenter resigned acknowledging that the book was full of fiction and lies.Additionally, it is bitterly anti-Semitic.
The Committee for Accuracy in Middle East Reporting In America (CAMERA) ran a full-page ad in the New York Times itemizing the errors and refuting them.They called on Simon and Schuster to correct the false claims in the book.But because of space limitations and the sheer numbers of errors in Carter's book, those ads could only highlight a fraction of Carter's falsehoods. Some of the fact and fiction is outlined by CAMERA at this link: http://camera.org/index.asp?x_context=2&x_outlet=118&x_article=1273
But the greater question is what possible spiritual input and spiritual growth could have been imparted by Jimmy Carter?If any of you heard the presentation live or via the TV feed, let me know.If church annual conferences are to feature men and women who cannot contribute to church spiritual growth, then I say they are a total failure.I don't need to attend an annual church conference featuring Carter and Colin Powell.They are not going to teach me how to live a victorious Christian life in an evil and fear-filled world. They are not going to help me better understand my Bible.They are not going to inspire me to share my faith.
And if these aren't the missions of the church, what are?It surely isn't "Carter diplomacy."
RADIO THIS WEEKEND—August 18 – 19: Talk show host Ingrid Schlueter, author Brian Flynn, and I will discuss some of the continuing deceptions that rage in our churches causing many to abandon the church in utter frustration. This is the most-frequent e-mail I get from around the world: "Do you know of a good church in my town?" God isn't finished with the church but during this time of the great falling away, it seems our churches are the first to fall when they should be protecting and nurturing the sheep.
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Hi: I pretty much agree with you Jan about Church Growth conferences. According to the Word of God in the book of Acts--The Holy Spirit drew people to the Lord & grew the churches by His mighty power. The word says "Not by might, not by power, but by my Spirit, says the Lord." So Church Growth happens by the Holy Spirit & He decides how big a church will be.
The pastor and congregation need to get before the Lord and fast and pray & get His plan for their church which is really His church, not theirs.
I am really bothered by all these "make it happen in the flesh" Church Growth programs to get bigger buildings which sometimes are not even needed really. My husband and I have gone through 3 of them already-3 different churches. Really only one of them was a bona fide need-we felt. The church was bursting at the seams. Click here to reply to this post
Re: Willowcreek and Jimmy Carter
Posted On: 09/08/07 06:06:13 PM
Age 65, VA
Jimmy Carter needs to be put out to pasture before God does it on all fours.
I consider him a traidor to this Country and to God. Click here to reply to this post
Re: Willowcreek and Jimmy Carter
Posted On: 08/17/07 02:16:43 PM
Age 35, TX
I was part of a group that attended this years Willowcreek Leadership Conference via satallite. I gleaned great insight into leadership and leadership models and methods from almost all of the conference speakers. In as much as I understand it, the purpose of the conference focuses on leadership and how to better our impact in our ministries and organizations. Along those lines I was challenged in many ways to evaluate my leadership qualities and take an objective look at our organizations effectiveness. However, in response to Jimmy Carter being in the line-up of speakers, I would agree with Jan Markell's assessment that Mr. Carter has little to offer by way of spiritual input or growth. Not only that but I don't believe that Mr. Carter has anything to offer in the area of leadership either. I have listened to his rhetoric and read many of his books over the last few years and have concluded that I disagree with much of his ideology and his worldview. The article references some of the shortcomings of his administration and his pursuites following his presidency. I agree again. For this reason, I felt no compulsion to attend his session. I would say that his inclusion as a speaker was the only drawback to this Summit on leadership.
Shawn Click here to reply to this post
Re: Willowcreek and Jimmy Carter
Posted On: 08/17/07 11:23:33 AM
Age 51, OH
This was a Leadership Summuit, not strictly a "church conference". Jimmy Carter, good, bad or indifferent, was/is a leader and an opinion shaper. Willow Creek does well to bring in a diversity of leadership speakers. We can learn even from the negative examples of leaders. Biblical example: David. Click here to reply to this post
Re: Re: Willowcreek and Jimmy Carter
Posted On: 09/16/07 04:46:59 PM
Age 65, VA
I don't believe you can compare Jimmy Carter to David!!!
That is like comparing raisins to apples!!!
David was the apple of God's eye.....Jimmy Carter better get on his face and repent, then keep his mouth closed. Click here to reply to this post
Re: Willowcreek and Jimmy Carter
Posted On: 08/17/07 06:33:53 AM
Age 51, WI
Is there some sort of brain disconnect going on here? First Jan gives her 4 point plan for proper mega-church growth, one of them being telling the truth. And then goes on to lament Jimmy Carter being present at an annual Leadership Summit with mega church growth leaders. Why? Because he tells the truth about America. Bad-mouthing is what Jan calls it. There happens to be a verse in the Bible somewhere about not saying anything untoward about America or apostate Israel or you're not a Christian. Nobody knows where that verse is except Jan and a few other cheerleaders for blowing up the Muslims.
Dictators? She brings up the Ayatollah Khoumeini. She is truly sad that the Shah of Iran kingdom fell and handed back over to the people of Iran with a man who's interest was for his own country, not his own pocket book, and America's interests. The Shah died a billionaire. The Ayatollah died poor.
What possible spiritual input and spiritual growth could have been imparted by Jimmy Carter? How about his life! His works speak volumes about his faith in Jesus Christ. At his age he is still building homes for the downtrodden, showing his faith to all in word and deed, not traveling the world making millions for his speeches, like Reagan did, Bush, Clinton, etc. have done and some are still doing. He also isn't responsible for the deaths of millions of Iraqi's and other people groups in the Middle East like our current "Christian" president is. I believe that God allowed the rescue to fail so Carter's hands were not stained with the blood of those you desire to destroy.
Please don't expect anyone but Jews and heretic dispinsationalist's to believe anything CAMERA has to say. They are strictly a shill for the Zionist, pagan, ungodly and apostate nation of Israel, which you seem to think are filled with God's chosen people . . . unbelievers. Oh yes, anything truthfully reported about this nation is termed anti-semitic. Truth be damned. Delusion is a word thrown around quite a bit by Jan, reminding us of the times we live in. Physician, heal thyself.
As far as Colin Powell is concerned, didn't he quit his job and finally repent of his lies given to the world and the American people about the reasons we went over to Iraq? That is the start of Christianity. Have you repented of your involvement in the support of the most murdereous empire in the history of the world? Does telling the truth about America consitute heresy and blasphemy according to the Bible? Sadly Jan's Christianity is based on the support of the enemies of Christ, the Jews.
You're sounding more and more like a female Rush Limbaugh, . . . no credibility whatsoever. Click here to reply to this post
Re: Re: Willowcreek and Jimmy Carter
Posted On: 08/24/07 07:34:20 AM
Age 50, MN
This is Jan, the female Rush Limbaugh. What a compliment. He is my mentor. He taught me to do "talk radio." I'll be subbing for him soon. Thanks again for making my day. ~ Jan Click here to reply to this post
Re: Re: Re: Willowcreek and Jimmy Carter
Posted On: 08/29/07 03:03:54 PM
Age 50, MN
How sad when our christian 'leaders' hold up as a mentor a chain smoking, pill popping, snide, egotistical blowhard who actually despises christians and only uses them to further his political agenda. Christians and Rush Limbaugh have NOTHING in common except a few conservative issues - he has duped us and used us as a voting bloc and should hardly be a mentor for anybody. I suppose it's okay for a Christian magazine publisher to hold up Hugh Hefner as a mentor too? At the bottom line they have very similar theology and if pressed he'll admit it. I guess only Jan can decide if this is righteous anger or just plain old anger. Click here to reply to this post
Re: Re: Willowcreek and Jimmy Carter
Posted On: 08/21/07 01:40:11 PM
Age 50, MN
This is Jan. My but you folks on the Left despise Israel. Jesus was a Jew. Our Bible is from the Jews. Salvation is of the Jews. Can't you back off with such hate rhetoric and just settle down and make a civilized criticism about them? Click here to reply to this post
Re: Re: Re: Willowcreek and Jimmy Carter
Posted On: 08/22/07 07:44:00 AM
Age 51, WI
Thanks Jan, you proved my points very well. The truth is called hate rhetoric from the left and not civilized. I don't despise Israel one bit like you think. You didn't read my post. No hate whatsoever. The truth and only the truth. By the way, I'm quite conservative in my beliefs. We actually have quite a bit in common, except I am not a dispensationalist. You see Israel as God's chosen, yet I see those who believe in Jesus Christ as God's chosen, Jew or Gentile, just like the New Testament says. Read Romans 9-11 without your preconceived conclusions. It is those with the faith of Abraham that are Israel, no bloodlines involved. And all Israel will be saved, meaning those with the faith of Abraham regardless of your racial preferences. Click here to reply to this post
Re: Re: Re: Re: Willowcreek and Jimmy Carter
Posted On: 08/23/07 08:35:22 PM
Age 52, CA
So! Ms Markell has a brain disconnect--that is such a sad state of affairs. I am truly thrilled you rode to the rescue of all the unfortunate misfits that congregate here.
Wow! Markell's "4 point plan for proper mega-church growth" includes telling the truth. What a novel concept: Truth.
I'm not going to waste my efforts at refuting your grossly misinformed views on James Carter. The enmasse walkout by his own staff speaks volumes to that.
I'm not going to bother with your brand of truth, either. Your post comes off sounding like a hate rant. If it truly isn't, learn how to write.
I really get tired of reading misinformed arm chair theologians using Romans incorrectly. Where did you learn your exegesis? Who told you Romans 9-11 proves the Jews have been "disinherited"? Did you come up with that on your own?
May I suggest a few tomes for your perusal? Let's start with John Murray's one vol. work: 'The Epistle to the Romans', followed by Donald Barnhouse's 4 vol. work titled 'Romans'. Then you might segue into John MacArthur's 2 vol. set titled "Romans'. Last, but by no means least, grapple with D. Martyn Lloyd-Jones' definitive 14 vol. work titled, you guessed it, 'Romans'.
Finally, May I recommend 'Evangelical Hermeneutics' by Robert L Thomas. You might learn something very valuable.
May God truly bless you through the finished work of the cross by His most holy and blessed son Y'shua.
Herb Click here to reply to this post
Re: Willowcreek and Jimmy Carter
Posted On: 08/16/07 08:49:25 PM
Age 56, MN
This wasn't a Church conference; this was a leadership summit! Jimmy Carter is not the best leader but he is a man who can compel many to attend who wouldn't ordinarily come and they in turn will hear a Gospel message roundly presented possibly many times. There is not a devil behind every bush. There is enough wrong with this country that you don't have to condemn even churches. You offer nothing positive, or any real solutions, just more complaining. Particularly when it is against some one who is triing to do something positive for America, even if it has a flaw or two.
You are a compelling reason for many to not even take a look at Christianity because we Believers are just a bunch of negative, bigoted, ultra-right wing war/hate mongering, shoot our wounded, miss-directed souls. Please, if you find a problem; try to give a soluable possible alternative! Click here to reply to this post
Re: Willowcreek and Jimmy Carter
Posted On: 08/16/07 05:43:07 PM
Age 49, IL
I guess I just don't see what Jimmy Carter has done to further the Kingdom in all of his books, travels and humanitarian efforts. I don't see him as a glowing example of Christian leadership; I guess I am not suprised that Willow might embrace his nice guy/ "works" Christianity. Rather they should have found a leader, perhaps like James MacDonald of Harvest Bible Chapel in Rolling Meadows, IL, who not only is head of a rapidly growing Harvest Bible Chapel, but also a leaderthat looks to God's Word for guidance at every step of the way and and makes no apology for standing faithfully on God's Truth in love. Sounds like Willow was more interested in a big turnout, than Biblical content...... Click here to reply to this post
My favorite Jimmy Carter story.
Posted On: 08/16/07 05:30:54 PM
Age 71, ME
Not long after Carter was unceremoniouly displaced by Reagan, there was a little wire-service news item in the Dallas paper: one of those little "filler" things they stick in the inside pages to even out columns.
It was datelined Plains, GA, and was probably supplied by a member of the Sunday School class Carter bragged of teaching before he became President and apparently returned to teaching when he left office.
Carter was expounding on one of the Pauline epistles. At some point a surprised class member said, "But that's not what Paul says....".
Carter replied (Can't you just see that cold-eyed smile?), "Paul was wrong". Click here to reply to this post
Re: My favorite Jimmy Carter story.
Posted On: 08/20/07 03:31:17 PM
Age 50, MN
Could it have been when Paul said all women need to wear head covering in church? (we've thrown that one out the door) Or maybe in his tacit endorsement of slavery? (should we go back to that?) There are also many other examples where we have written off Paul's commands due to 'cultural understandings' - at least the ones we don't want to adhere to anymore. We all pick and choose whether you want to admit it or not - Carter was just being honest about it -kind of refreshing isn't it? Click here to reply to this post
Re: Willowcreek and Jimmy Carter
Posted On: 08/16/07 01:05:32 PM
Age 69, CA
Carter has done FAR more evil than good.
He is either hopelessly naive or he is deliberately deluding many Americans.
The only reason a church would mention him is to support the "Christian" left, which is antagonistic to Christ. Click here to reply to this post
He did this before...
Posted On: 08/16/07 11:00:29 AM
Age 20, NC
Let's not forget that Hybels has done this sort of thing before. He invited then-President Clinton to speak at his church in a 2000 leadership conference. Click here to reply to this post
