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| Jacob, Esau and Two Thieves on a Cross |
Posted: 05/16/2007
Jacob, Esau and Two Thieves on a Cross
In Romans 9, Paul makes a crystal clear, rock-solid case that God’s freedom to choose whom He will and reject whom He will is not based on any distinction in the persons themselves, for God chose Jacob and rejected Esau before they had done anything good or evil, before they were even born.
God’s freedom of choice is an application of His freedom of being. LORD, or Yahweh, means “I AM THAT I AM.” This repetition indicates that God is free to be anything He chooses to be. And because God is who He chooses to be, He is free to do as He chooses to do. An application of His freedom is found in Ex. 33:19, which Paul quotes in Romans 9:15: “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” In Ex. 3:14, when Moses asked God His name, God replied, “I AM THAT I AM.” Later, in Ex. 33:19, Moses asked God to show him His glory. God replied to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy.” I AM is His freedom of being. “I will…” is His freedom of doing. Out of His absolute unbounded freedom to be is His absolute unbounded freedom to do.
Why two thieves on either side of Jesus? The answer is parallel to the answer concerning Jacob and Esau. Both were just as unworthy of God’s electing grace. Yet God, in His sovereign freedom, chose Jacob. And God, in His sovereign freedom, chose one thief and not the other. Here again, at the very center of redemptive history, at Calvary itself, we find God’s freedom blasting forth in full force. “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy.” God’s Spirit regenerated the heart of one thief right there on a cross, even as the crowd hurled insults at Jesus. He looked upon the crowd and he looked upon Jesus, and his heart was changed in an instant. He saw the injustice and he fell, in a sense, on his knees at the feet of Jesus. The other thief heard the same insults and blasphemies poured out toward the Son of God, but the Holy Spirit passed over him, leaving him in his wickedness. This thief even chimed in, joining in the mockery of Jesus. One was stirred to repentance, the other toward the greatest evil of all, reviling God Himself. And when the repentant thief could bear it no more, he rebuked the wicked thief, making his profession of faith right there on a cross. And as he did, he summed up the doctrine of grace in one concise statement:
“Do you not fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? And we indeed justly, for we are receiving the due reward of our deeds…”
This thief had been reborn, an act of God the Holy Spirit. The veil had been lifted and he saw “the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ” (2 Cor. 4:6). And seeing this, he saw his own wickedness, his own deserved condemnation, justly due him for his sins. He recognized that even this cross he hung upon would not fulfill the sentence he rightly deserved. What was due him was an eternal condemnation. And with a broken and contrite spirit, he looked to the center and saw Jesus the justifier. He looked closely and, with new eyes, saw his own sin being condemned in the flesh of the One beside him, the Man who knew no sin but became sin (2 Cor. 5:21a), so that God’s fury against sin might fall upon Him in full measure. He saw these things with a regenerated heart, and he believed, falling upon Jesus.
This thief’s confession is the necessary confession of every person who has and ever will live – that we are under the same sentence of condemnation, and we will justly receive the due reward for our deeds. All have sinned and fallen short of God’s glory. All have impending wrath and just judgment coming our way. One thief received his due upon the cross and now in all eternity. The other thief received mercy and fell upon Christ. He received mercy and an entrance into eternal life because, in Christ, he became the righteousness of God (2 Cor. 5:21b). Both deserved what one of them received; neither deserved what only one received. For God in His divine wisdom and foreknowledge chose one and rejected the other. And these two crosses on either side of Jesus’s stand forever as a reminder of God’s freedom to have mercy on whom He has mercy and to harden whom He hardens.
Distributed by www.ChristianWorldviewNetwork.com
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Re: Jacob, Esau and Two Thieves on a Cross
| Posted On: 05/28/07 11:59:11 AM |
Age 58, VA |
Before this goes off the air, one last word "HERE" anyway. 1John 2:1-2 says, My little children, I a writing these things to you that you may not sin. And if anyoe sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and HE HIMSELF IS THE PROPITIATION FOR !!!!! OUR SINS!!!!AND NOT FOR OURS!!!!ONLY!!! BUT ALSO FOR THOSE OF THE !!!!WHOLE WORLD!" He who knew no sin became sin so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. Not for a select few, but for the whole world, whosoever would believe!
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- Re: Re: Jacob, Esau and Two Thieves on a Cross
| Posted On: 05/29/07 08:35:32 AM | | Age 45, AR |
Yes, he wrote that and he meant the whole world without distinction (speaking against Jewish exclusivity, the inclusion of the Gentiles) not the whole world without exception. If he meant the whole world without exception, then his death could not be a propitiation if hell continues to exist.
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Re: Jacob, Esau and Two Thieves on a Cross
| Posted On: 05/21/07 07:42:01 AM |
Age 58, VA |
"The other thief heard the same insults and blasphemies poured out toward the Son of God, but “ BUT THE HOLY SPIRIT PASSED OVER HIM”, leaving him in his wickedness." In this sentence or statement of yours, you assume the Holy Spirit "passed over him" and thereby conclude that the Holy Spirit, the third person of the Godhead, purposely had no mercy on him and thereby did not choose him but instead, for God's own reasons, chose the other thief and saved him instead. Your assumption is skewed therefore your WHOLE theory is skewed. The bible says, "They did not come to the light (of the Holy Spirit) because they did not want their deeds exposed." "Did not come" is the action of those who "did not want", (another personal action) their deeds exposed. The Holy Spirit has been sent to lead all of us to Christ. He does not "pass over" one to go on to the next. The Holy Spirit is every where beckoning and drawing those to Christ who will allow their sins to be exposed by "coming into the light", a free will action of their own. John 3:19-20 says "And this is the condemnation that the light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone that doeth evil hateth the light, neither COMETH TO THE LIGHT, LEAST HIS DEEDS BE EXPOSED." The Holy Spirit was there to reveal Christ to both the thieves, for that matter all who were there. And as the one saw his sinfulness and saw Christ as Savior he repented and believed and was saved. The other thief would not let the light reveal his sinfulness, he would not let his deeds be exposed as evil and instead he mocked Christ and was not saved. Luke 24:47 says that Christ told the disciples to go and preach repentance and remission of sins in His name to all the nations. One must "come" to the light and repent before his sins are remitted. "Come" is the free will action of the individual. The action of "passing over one" in the New Testament is not scriptural. The Holy Sprit is like a mother reaching out her arms to a wayward child, saying, "come, I will help you." Each child either "comes" or "goes his own way,” away from the light. The mother loves so much, she opens her arms still and says "Come." Likewise, "for God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son that WHOSOEVER believeth in Him, should not perish but have Eternal Life.” The light was available to each thief. Only one “came” ( his own action) to it and allowed his deeds to be exposed as wicked. He repented and was eventually saved. We each have a free will to "come" to the light or not. If we come, it is Christ’s grace through faith and that not of ourselves that saves us and changes us. Only He can show us our sins, but we must allow the light to shine on them and reveal them to us. We can choose not to let our deeds be exposed and reject the light. “We” have a free will !
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- Re: Re: Jacob, Esau and Two Thieves on a Cross
| Posted On: 05/22/07 10:02:24 PM | | Age 45, AR |
I agree that man has a free will. But, salvation is described as being "born again". John 1:13;3:3. Did you come into your physical birth by an exercise of your free will?
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- Re: Re: Re: Jacob, Esau and Two Thieves on a Cross
| Posted On: 05/23/07 07:55:26 AM | | Age 50, NETHERLANDS |
If you choose to take a shower, can you get wet and cleaned by yourself?
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- Re: Re: Re: Re: Jacob, Esau and Two Thieves on a Cross
| Posted On: 05/24/07 01:01:03 PM | | Age 45, AR |
Yes. And your point is????
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- Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Jacob, Esau and Two Thieves on a Cross
| Posted On: 05/29/07 04:13:03 PM | | Age 50, NETHERLANDS |
No, you cannot! My point is: you only can get wet and cleaned by the water, not by yourself. However, you can choose to go under the shower, and be cleaned. Got it?
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- Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Jacob, Esau and Two Thieves on a Cross
| Posted On: 05/31/07 02:19:41 PM | | Age 45, AR |
Sorry, but no, still don't get it.
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- Re: Re: Re: Jacob, Esau and Two Thieves on a Cross
| Posted On: 05/23/07 04:51:35 AM | | Age 58, VA |
Your question is nonsence. I was not yet born with the ability to choose "before" I was born into this physical body. But I did have a deciding part, the ability to choose, once I was alive in this body in whether or not I would come to the light. I refused it for years "lest" (defined as "for fear that" by Websters) my deeds be exposed as evil. God did not fear. "I" "feared" the bible says. My own fear, my own decision, my own will, rejected the light for years. Until one day I allowed the light to reveal my deeds as evil and I repented and God saved me. Even John the Baptist, preparing the way for the the Lord, warned people to repent! Repentance is a choice. I don't have to repent if I don't want to. Even to this day, I sin because I want to and I confess my sins because I want to. I forgive because I want to. God warns me to forgive or else he will not forgive me! He does not force me to forgive. He convicts me to forgive. But it is an act of my own will whether I do or not. There are people who will go to their grave telling themselves, God, and others that they are not sinners, that they are basically good. These are people who have heard the Gospel, but have rejected it "lest (for fear) their deeds be exposed as evil." Their choice- having heard the message. We are not dummies. When two children hear a convicting message not to steal, the one does steal, because he chooses to ignore the conviction of the Holy Spirit , the other heeds the conviction and decides not to steal. Is one 14 year old boy chosen and one not? Do they both have the opportunity to respond to the light or not? I am so glad my loved ones all have a choice. I am so glad both these boys have a choice. I am so glad each little 5 year old child who is precious enough to bless my heart, has an opportunity to believe and be saved. For God so loved the World that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on Him shall not perish, but have Eternal Life.
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- Re: Re: Re: Re: Jacob, Esau and Two Thieves on a Cross
| Posted On: 05/24/07 01:17:20 PM | | Age 45, AR |
"Your question is nonsence (sic)" First, it is not my question, it is Nicodemus' question. Your answer is that the question is nonsense. Jesus' answer is that the Spirit must give birth to spirit. John expounded on the same notion earlier where he stated that those who believe in Jesus' name are children of God, born not of human decision, but born of God. John 1:13 Second, I have already agreed that the Bible teaches that man has a free will and that man chooses. The Bible teaches that God's sovereignty and man's will are a "both/and" not an "either/or". Repentance and faith are described in the Bible as being "both" gifts from God, "and" personal choices.
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- Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Jacob, Esau and Two Thieves on a Cross
| Posted On: 05/25/07 01:32:35 PM | | Age 58, VA |
Nicodemus asked “how can a man be born again, must he enter into his mother's womb a second time. Is that what you mean by being born twice?” Jesus answered that he was not talking about a physical birth of the flesh but rather a spiritual birth of the spirit. Nicodemus's question was entirely different from what you ask. And besides, we already know the answer to Nicodemus' question. Also, the scripture does not say "human decision." You have twisted that for your advantage. It says not of the will of the flesh. I cannot will myself to be saved. I cannot regenerate myself. I must receive Christ and He does the work in me.
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- Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Jacob, Esau and Two Thieves on a Cross
| Posted On: 05/26/07 07:45:19 AM | | Age 45, AR |
No, the question is the same, albeit worded differently. Nicodemus recognized that what Jesus said required that which is humanly impossible, being born again. And that is the point. We depend on God for our salvation. Regarding "human decision" and twisting Scripture, I was quoting from the NIV which was all I had at hand when I responded. The NIV is not word for word but your charge of Scripture twisting is a little hasty don't you think. I actually prefer "will of the flesh" because it is much easier to decide than it is to change one's will. And, our ability to respond to the gospel first requires a radical change of the will. Only God can do this. He does this (regeneration) and then we respond in repentance and faith. So, given your recognition that God must regenerate, your order makes no sense. How do we respond before our will has been changed? We cannot respond against our will, our decisions always serve the will.
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- Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Jacob, Esau and Two Thieves on a Cross
| Posted On: 05/27/07 12:28:28 AM | | Age 58, VA |
Again, I say what you say is all nonsense. You are truly a "lucky" man to have been picked to be saved. How tragic for those who never had a chance! (On the other hand, I will thank God that whoever I pray for can be saved, if they will only believe. How blessed they are that God died for them, any and all of them.)
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- Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Jacob, Esau and Two Thieves on a Cross
| Posted On: 05/27/07 03:55:35 PM | | Age 45, AR |
Oh, one more thought. Why do you pray for people to be saved? God cannot interfer with unbelievers' will. Why do you ask God to do that which He is unable to do?
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- Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Jacob, Esau and Two Thieves on a Cross
| Posted On: 05/27/07 03:52:45 PM | | Age 45, AR |
Of course it is nonsense to you. My beliefs are formed by God's word, your beliefs are formed by your unaided reason. And, actually, you are the lucky one, not me. According to Scripture, no luck was involved in my salvation. God chose me. In your system, God chooses nobody, so it truely does take luck, as opposed to God's power, to be saved.
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Re: Jacob, Esau and Two Thieves on a Cross
| Posted On: 05/18/07 11:54:32 AM |
Age 53, VA |
Great article. Thank you for affirming the sovereignty of God in all things. If God allowed man to chose who would go to heaven or hell there would be no justice and no mercy.
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Re: Jacob, Esau and Two Thieves on a Cross
| Posted On: 05/16/07 08:55:56 PM |
Age 51, AZ |
These are just a few Bible verses, but they blow your premise of pre-destination out of the water.
You have mistaken God's knowledge and omnipotence with pre-destination. IF you were correct, then there is no free will; Adam and Eve never would have sinned, since God hates sin. We all know better and as a result of their sin, God cursed the earth and all that's in it. In addition, to advocate pre-destination is a grave insult to God.
John 3:14-18
14Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15that EVERYONE who believes in him may have eternal life. 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that WHOEVER believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18WHOEVER believes in him is not condemned, but WHOEVER does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.
2 Peter 3:9
9The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting ANYONE to perish, but EVERYONE to come to repentance.
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- Re: Re: Jacob, Esau and Two Thieves on a Cross
| Posted On: 05/18/07 11:59:51 AM | | Age 53, VA |
If we are all exposed to the same Gospel, why do some believe and others do not believe?
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- Re: Re: Re: Jacob, Esau and Two Thieves on a Cross
| Posted On: 05/21/07 03:27:26 PM | | Age 58, VA |
Again read John 3:19-20. Without repentance there can be no forgiveness and no salvation. One must "come" to the light and let their deeds be exposed as evil. Then and only then can they repent. If they won't "come" to the light and repent of their evil deeds, they cannot receive the grace and faith to be saved. Some do, many don't. Wide is the road to destruction and many travel there to damnation. Narrow is the road to eternal life. And few "find" it. We have a free will! Find is an act of our free will. Salvation is the work of God.
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- Re: Re: Re: Re: Jacob, Esau and Two Thieves on a Cross
| Posted On: 05/22/07 10:07:46 PM | | Age 45, AR |
Repentance is a gift which God must grant. 2 Tim. 2:25. Why? Because no one seeks God by exercise of their free will. Rom. 3:11.
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- Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Jacob, Esau and Two Thieves on a Cross
| Posted On: 05/23/07 05:08:16 AM | | Age 58, VA |
Who said that salvation is a free gift "because no one seeks God on their own?" the bible says it is free because God decided to pay the penalty Himself.You have decided yourself that the reason for it's being free is that "no one seeks God on their own." The truth is that Jesus sent the Comforter, the Holy Spirt to lead us and guide us into all truth. On earth today, the Holy Spirt presents us with the Gospel. The Holy Spirit reveals our sin to us, our deeds as evil, the Holy Spirit convicts us of sin. But we can reject it all. We can believe or not believe in this free gift for which Jesus paid the penalty in our stead.
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- Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Jacob, Esau and Two Thieves on a Cross
| Posted On: 05/24/07 01:22:58 PM | | Age 45, AR |
God said it. That is why I quoted the verses. It is "free" because Jesus paid it all. It is a "gift" because we pay nothing for it, do not deserve it, and do not even seek it.
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- Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Jacob, Esau and Two Thieves on a Cross
| Posted On: 05/25/07 06:09:10 PM | | Age 58, VA |
You said it was a free gift "because no one seeks God on their own." Your reason for it's being free is not biblical. The bible doesn't say that. It is free because Jesus paid the price for us. My point is that you add to the scripture and misinterpret things because of your foundational theory of Calvinism.
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- Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Jacob, Esau and Two Thieves on a Cross
| Posted On: 05/26/07 07:53:14 AM | | Age 45, AR |
And I can just as easily charge that you do not understand Scripture because you are biblicistic. You think the Bible reads like an instruction manual where each verse is read in isolation without need for integration. Jesus did pay it all. Why? Because man is incapable of saving himself. Man is not even able to orient himself towards God. God must do all the work in salvation including changing man's orientation. If you fail to integrate Rom 3:11 into your understanding of the gospel, you have failed to integrate all which God reveals, and your Gospel is too small. A gift which I just as easily could have purchased for myself is nice. I gift which is completely beyond my capacity to obtain is amazing.
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- Re: Re: Re: Re: Jacob, Esau and Two Thieves on a Cross
| Posted On: 05/22/07 04:23:07 AM | | Age 53, VA |
What causes those who come, to come. What is lacking in those who do not come, why do they not repent?
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- Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Jacob, Esau and Two Thieves on a Cross
| Posted On: 05/23/07 12:26:22 AM | | Age 58, VA |
What causes them to come? When they hear the invitation, they make a decision to move their feet and go in the direction of The Holy Spirit. What is lacking in those who do not come? They fear their deeds will be exposed. They do not want to come. They decide not to come. If they will come to the light of the Holy Spirit, He will expose their deeds as evil, he will expose their sins. Once they see and admit their sins, they can repent and be saved. Those who won't come to the light have not yet allowed the Holy Spirit to expose their deeds as evil. THEY DO NOT COME LEST THEIR DEEDS BE EXPOSED SO THEY GO THEIR OWN WAY AND DO NOT REPENT. "Lest”, according to Webster's dictionary means for "fear that." They would not come "for fear that" their deeds would be exposed for what they were-evil. Perhaps at another time this will happen but not until they come to the light and allow their deeds to be exposed as evil. (These are the ones who say they are a good person, they are not a sinner. They do not want their deeds exposed as evil! If you don't think you are a sinner, you can't repent. If you don't want to see yourself as a sinner you won't want to repent.
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- Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Jacob, Esau and Two Thieves on a Cross
| Posted On: 05/23/07 04:14:13 AM | | Age 53, VA |
But John 1:13 says that we are born of God not of human decision as you have stated.
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- Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Jacob, Esau and Two Thieves on a Cross
| Posted On: 05/24/07 08:49:08 AM | | Age 58, VA |
I did not say a man is born again by a human decision nor does the bible say that. The bible says no man is born of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man but of God. That means I cannot regenerate myself. “I” cannot perform the change in myself by my own doing, by the will of my flesh. However, John 1: 11 says He came to His own but His own "did not receive" Him, but as many as "received Him," to them he gave power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on Him. Soooooooo, we first "received Him" and believed and then he gave us the power to become sons of God. It is His power, yes, but we had to first receive Him-not reject Him as many do. This whole thing hinges on a few things. I must come when he draws me and I must not go the other way. I must receive Him and not reject him. Then He saves me. He does the rebirth part. I cannot save myself or renew my spirit or cover myself in the blood or pay for my sins. That is His part. My part is to receive him, to come when he draws me and to believe on him. He performs the salvation, the regeneration, the process of being Born Again. I am Born Again, not by my will performing the change in me, not by blood sacrifices changing me, not by any man changing me, but by God changing me and regenerating my spirit. I cannot take pride in the fact or find in the Word that I was hand picked of God above all others to be saved. I do know that in his omniscience, he sees the beginning to the end. And he knows who and when they will receive Him. He also knows who will reject his Gospel. Yet also from before the foundations of the earth, Jesus Christ was slain. In eternity, God already knows who will be saved, but the invitation goes on in our time, in the years that we live out our lives on earth, and anyone who believes will be saved, but those who do not believe will be damned. In the scheme of Eternity, God already knows who they are, but in the scheme of this finite life, it is yet to be completely played out. And all of us who are alive have an opportunity whether it is to receive and believe Him or reject Him. I have one question too. When all is said and done and you believe as you do, how can you find any compassion for those who are not saved. How do you find compassion and concern for those who aren't as blessed as you to be the "so called" CHOSEN of God to be saved and spend eternity with God in heaven? How can you find sympathy for them? What motivates you to persue them? I feel great distress over the lost and those who have not accepted his Gospel of Grace. I feel personally responcible to reach the lost-anyone- who does not know Him, so that they might be saved. If I knew it was all wrapped up and their salvation depended on God alone and I could not persuade anyone to hear the message of the Gospel, I would not bother much. Either they are or they aren't and they will or won't get saved so why should I bother with them? And if I spend my energy on someone, then how long should I tarry with them since they might not be chosen anyway! How self-centered and inclusive. I can't imagine anything other than "whosoever will believe on Him shall not perish but have eternal life."
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- Re: Re: Jacob, Esau and Two Thieves on a Cross
| Posted On: 05/17/07 10:24:05 PM | | Age 45, AR |
And just before Jesus spoke those words in John 3:14-18 he spoke the words we find in John 3:5-8. And just before Peter wrote the words found in 2 Peter 3:9 he wrote the words found in 2 Peter 1:10. There are no self-caused, causes. Man cannot create his own will, this would require man to exist and not exist at the same time. If man has a will (and he does) it is because God created it. And God sustains all that He creates. Predestination is the necessary foundation for man's free will. The two notions are not in conflict, they are complimentary.
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Re: Jacob, Esau and Two Thieves on a Cross
| Posted On: 05/16/07 02:22:42 PM |
Age 50, NETHERLANDS |
"The other thief heard the same insults and blasphemies poured out toward the Son of God, but the Holy Spirit passed over him, leaving him in his wickedness."
Now that is really nonsense: How do YOU know that the Holy Spirit passed over him, thus leaving him in his wickedness?
Don't you know we can reject and rebel against the Holy Spirit? Like the Pharizees did. Check your bible, please!
Here you are adding to Scripture. Dangerous!
I only read in scripture that one 'thief' is accepting Jesus, while the other apparently did not.
I conclude your 'system theology' is more important for you than all that what the Bible teaches.
You better be careful next time!
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- Re: Re: Jacob, Esau and Two Thieves on a Cross
| Posted On: 05/18/07 03:43:28 PM | | Age 53, VA |
You know that the Holy Spirit passed over the unrepentant thief because he didn't repent. One of the missions of the Holy Spirit is to convict sinners of their sin.
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- Re: Re: Re: Jacob, Esau and Two Thieves on a Cross
| Posted On: 05/23/07 07:29:01 AM | | Age 50, NETHERLANDS |
I believe the writer of this article meant:
The holy Spirit passed over this thief because he wasn't supposed to be rescued. This thief was from birth destined to go to hell. The fact that this thief did not repent was because the holy Spirit ´passed over him´ so he was never able to repent.
This is all according to and consistent with Calvinist system theology.
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- Re: Re: Jacob, Esau and Two Thieves on a Cross
| Posted On: 05/17/07 10:26:53 PM | | Age 45, CA |
We know it because Scripture interprets Scripture and Jesus told us how the Spirit works in John 3:5-8.
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- Re: Re: Re: Jacob, Esau and Two Thieves on a Cross
| Posted On: 05/23/07 07:47:06 AM | | Age 50, NETHERLANDS |
I am not quite sure why you mentioned John 3 verse 5 to 8 here. Maybe because verse 8 says, `The wind bloweth where it is listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth. So is every one that is born of the Spirit.`
However, from these verse I cannot conclude that the Spirit touched one thief and passed over the other one.
Of course, I you have a preassumed thought, you always could find some scripture to support your view. Nothing news under the sun.
Please consider the fact, didn´t Jesus died for ALL of us?
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- Re: Re: Re: Re: Jacob, Esau and Two Thieves on a Cross
| Posted On: 05/24/07 01:31:09 PM | | Age 45, AR |
Yes, Jesus died for all of us Christians. No, Jesus did not die for all of us humans. John 10:14-15. John 3:5-8 is unambiguous. No one enters the kingdom of God unless born of the Spirit. The wind (Spirit) blows wherever it pleases. You cannot tell where it is coming from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit. So, the Spirit must blow over us if we are to be born again. And, the Spirit blows where He wants to blow. His will determines where He will blow, and no-one elses.
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Re: Jacob, Esau and Two Thieves on a Cross
| Posted On: 05/16/07 11:51:09 AM |
Age 52, FL |
Regarding Jacob and Esau - God chose Jacob for His lineage of the nation of Israel to continue thru him. God wasn't deciding the eternal destiny of their souls. And when the thief on the cross asked Jesus to remember him when He came into His Kingdom THEN Jesus said "Today you will be with Me in Paradise". Psalm 139 says that God knows our thoughts even before we think them. But to says that God picks and chooses who He wants to go to heaven or hell is not the merciful God I read about who says "WHOSOEVER will let him come and drink of the water of life freely." Rev.22:17
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- Re: Re: Jacob, Esau and Two Thieves on a Cross
| Posted On: 05/16/07 08:36:18 PM | | Age 56, NC |
If you read the first chapter of Malachi you will see indeed that God loved Jacob to salvation, and hated Esau to destruction. Not only Esau but his lineage Edom from generation to generation. In verse 4 it says "and the people against whom the Lord will have indignation forever".
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- Re: Re: Re: Jacob, Esau and Two Thieves on a Cross
| Posted On: 05/17/07 09:32:45 AM | | Age 52, FL |
When God hardened Pharoah's heart it was to show His glory to him and the nation of Israel. God chose Abraham, Isaac and Jacob to birth the nation of Israel. When Jesus came He was a Sheperd. He came to seek and save that which was lost. To heal the broken hearted and to set at liberty those who were captive. He did not say when He came to this earth - I choose you but not you.
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- Re: Re: Re: Re: Jacob, Esau and Two Thieves on a Cross
| Posted On: 05/19/07 10:59:12 AM | | Age 56, NC |
Read John 6:64-65 Jesus knew who did not believe even many of his disciples who wanted to follow him could not believe. verse 65 He said "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father"
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- Re: Re: Re: Re: Jacob, Esau and Two Thieves on a Cross
| Posted On: 05/18/07 12:25:40 PM | | Age 53, VA |
John 15:16 - You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit—fruit that will last. Then the Father will give you whatever you ask in my name.
John 17:19 - I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours.
John 10:25-30 Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 2My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all[c]; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. I and the Father are one."
Sounds like Jesus did choose some over the others and that the choice was made long before He walked the earth.
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- Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Jacob, Esau and Two Thieves on a Cross
| Posted On: 05/22/07 11:34:09 AM | | Age 52, FL |
John 17:20 "I pray not only for these, but also for those who believe in Me through their message." This is an act of someone's free will - to believe. Rev. 22:17...And the one who is thirsty should come. Whoever desires should take the living water as a gift. Romans 5:18 Therefore as by the offense of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; EVEN SO BY THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF ONE THE FREE GIFT CAME UPON ALL MEN UNTO JUSTIFICATION OF LIFE.
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- Re: Re: Re: Re: Jacob, Esau and Two Thieves on a Cross
| Posted On: 05/17/07 10:36:15 PM | | Age 45, AR |
Actually, he did. John 15:16.
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- Re: Re: Jacob, Esau and Two Thieves on a Cross
| Posted On: 05/16/07 04:44:05 PM | | Age 42, AL |
I couldn't agree more. Calvinism makes God arbitrary, sending some to heaven and some to hell. That's not the loving, relational God of the bible.
The pagan greeks spoke of fate. Calvinists call it providence.
Additionally, the use of hate in the bible often means to love less. Look at: Luke 14:26 "If any [man] come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple." That simply means to love God more than your father, mother, etc..
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- Re: Re: Re: Jacob, Esau and Two Thieves on a Cross
| Posted On: 05/18/07 12:10:57 PM | | Age 53, VA |
Just because you don't know why God chooses the way he does does not make Him arbitrary. The Apostle Paul's answer to your objections is found in Romans 9:19-21 -One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' "Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?
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- Re: Re: Re: Jacob, Esau and Two Thieves on a Cross
| Posted On: 05/17/07 10:42:29 PM | | Age 45, AR |
Then I guess the Bible makes God arbitrary since it testifies that God predestines everything (Eph. 1:11) and who goes to heaven and who goes to hell is a part of everything. Look, my points I have made in my responses is that the Bible does teach that God is sovereign over everything. It also teaches that man has a will and man is alone morally responsible for how he exercises that will. I would judge that the body of Christ would be better served by growing in our understanding of these Biblical paradoxes as opposed to just demonizing those we disagree with.
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- Re: Re: Re: Re: Jacob, Esau and Two Thieves on a Cross
| Posted On: 05/28/07 11:36:02 PM | | Age 58, VA |
Demonizing?-who has called anyone demonic, satanic, etc. I don't think any of us have gone that far. Also listen to Brannon's talk on 5/26/07 "Can You Really Know If You Are A Christian" with test from 1John by Dr. Herring. Brannon explains that a man contacted him who was in total disagreement with what Brannon was saying on a subject. He later got back in touch with Brannon sayng he had come to learn that Brannon was correct. His whole life was turned around.
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