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| What if the Pilgrims Had Been Muslims? |
Posted: 04/12/2007
What if the Pilgrims Had Been Muslims?
“So, why is murder wrong?” I posited that question to a group of high school seniors in an affluent Columbus suburban school. I had been invited to speak to a class called “Poly Rad,” which is a course designed to give seniors a variety of different views across the political spectrum. It stimulates a great deal of debate and really exposes the crux of modern American education.
With all of the talk today about the lousy job our government schools are doing, you would think that someone would point out that, in fact, the schools are doing a marvelous job. Although most citizens, parents in particular, are dazzled by the spin put out by their local school system regarding the great job the schools are doing, the Truth remains that from an educational point of view our government school system is a dismal failure.
Yes, from an EDUCATIONAL standpoint the schools are doing poorly. But overall, the schools are doing a great job. In fact, I would say that they get an “A” for their efforts. You see, there is a misunderstanding between what the parents think the schools are supposed to do, and what the policy-makers think the schools are supposed to do.
Trust me, the schools are doing exactly what they have been designed to do, and they are doing it well. Most taxpayers have been hoodwinked into believing the job of their local schools have been to EDUCATE their children.
But in the ivory towers in Washington where the real decisions regarding education are made, they know that parents have been sold a bill of goods. The job of the modern American educational system is not EDUCATION but INDOCTRINATION.
Seven and one-half hours a day, five days a week, one hundred and eighty days a year, our children are not taught HOW to think, they are taught WHAT to think. “All religions, and cultures are the same,” goes the motto.
Isn’t it odd, that when we hear someone speak about the school systems in Muslim countries they often refer to the “brain-washing” that is done in those countries to train the children to hate Jews and infidels? “Indoctrination into hate,” I heard one commentator say.
Well the brainwashing is just as rampant in America, only we call it education.
The “dirt” that needs “washed” out of the brains of American children is our Christian heritage. Multi-culturalism is the detergent they use, and intimidation is the starch. To steal a basketball term, the educational-elite have put on a full-court press to convince our children that all cultures are the same.
When the autopsy of America is completed, the cause of death will be listed as “suicide by multi-cultural indoctrination.” It is a suicide in which the church has played the role of Dr. Kervorkian, standing quietly by as the poison was administered.
“So, why is murder wrong?” I asked this group of future leaders in the classroom.
“Because it takes another person’s life,” a young girl responded.
“So,” I asked, “what makes that wrong?”
“Because no one has the right to take someone else’s life,” chimed in a round-faced self-impressed, know-it-all.
“Says who?” I pressed in on the increasingly agitated students.
“It is against the law, Buddy,” piped in a bored, overweight humanist with baggy pants.
“Let me get this straight.” I baited the hook. “The law determines murder is wrong, is that correct? You’re saying murder is wrong because the law says it is?”
“Yeah,” they chorused. “No one has the right to take another person’s life.”
“Really?” I began to set the hook. “How about suicide bombers?” You know, the folks who strap bombs on themselves and set them off to murder others in the name of their religion. They think they are doing a good thing. They think murder brings glory to their god. Are they wrong? Come on now, in America wouldn’t we condemn anyone who did such a despicable thing? In Iraq they think it is a good thing. Their religion, which is their government, teaches it is a good thing to kill certain people. Who is right? Why do we American’s think murder is wrong, yet suicide bombers think they will be honored in heaven for having murdered innocent people?”
“That’s because they follow the Koran,” offered a soft-spoken olive-skinned young man. “They get their idea of right and wrong from the Koran. The Koran teaches it is ok to kill the Jews and the Infidels.
“Yeah, but you all just told me murder is always wrong.” I reminded them. “Which is it? Can murder be right for one person and wrong for another? Why, in America, do we believe murder is wrong, but in other parts of the world it is ok?”
“Because we follow the Bible,” one jockish looking young man clad in a Ohio State Buckeye jersey spoke up. “The Bible teaches that murder is wrong. That is what America believes. Our laws were based on the Bible; other countries based their laws on whatever religion they believed. The Bible says thou shall not murder so that became one of our laws.”
“So who is right?” I eased in as the Truth was flushing over their faces. “In America do we allow one person to murder another because HIS religion says it is ok, or do we have one standard for all?”
“O.J. got away with it.” Came a cynical voice from the back.
“Maybe he was a Muslim,” chortled a classmate. The room chuckled nervously.
“Stay with me,” I drew them back in. In America would we allow someone to murder another person because his religion said it was ok, or would we hold him accountable? Would the excuse that it was legal in his native country get him off in America?
“Of course not!” exclaimed a couple of students simultaneously. “If a person is going to live in America then he must abide by our laws. Our Constitution says everyone has the right to life. If someone wants to live in America then he has to follow our laws. In America it is wrong to murder.”
“Actually the Constitution doesn’t say anything about the right to life,” I gently corrected, “that is found in the Declaration of Independence. But the premise is the same. In America we believe that no one has the right to take the life of another. Why?”
There was a pregnant pause, as no one wanted to say the obvious. The fruits of twelve years of indoctrination about separation of church and state, values clarification, no absolute right and wrong, moral relativism, and who-are-you-to-judge, lay naked and exposed. Finally a clean cut, captain-of-the-football-team-looking young man mustered the courage to say what our children had been brainwashed never to mention.
“Murder is wrong because God said it is and the Bible teaches it. Christians founded this nation on the principles of the Bible. They believed in the 10 Commandments and used it as the basis of all moral law. “Thou shall not murder was the Christian God’s idea. Our government wrote it into law.”
The teachable moment, that is what all teachers strive for. That moment in time when the opportunity arrives where Truth can imbed itself in the heart. The reality of the fraud of everything they had been taught oozed into their souls. America was different from other countries and they knew why. They understood that all cultures are not morally equal.
“I know that you have been taught that America is not a Christian nation, and it isn’t in the sense that Iran is a Muslim nation.” I broke the silence. “But let me ask you a question. If you had your choice would you rather live in Iran or America?”
Their resounding response was, “America!”
“Why?” I led them.
“Because America has freedom,” a student barked.
“Why?” I pressed.
“Because in America we follow the Bible while they follow the Koran?” he responded.
“Wow,” gasped a young man in wonderment. “I was just thinking….how different would America be if the Pilgrims on the Mayflower were Muslim.”
The Mayflower Compact
"In the name of God, Amen.
We, whose names are underwritten, the Loyal Subjects of our dread Sovereign Lord, King James, by the Grace of God, of England, France and Ireland, King, Defender of the Faith, e&. Having undertaken for the Glory of God, and Advancement of the Christian Faith, and the Honour of our King and Country, a voyage to plant the first colony in the northern parts of Virginia; do by these presents, solemnly and mutually in the Presence of God and one of another, covenant and combine ourselves together into a civil Body Politick, for our better Ordering and Preservation, and Furtherance of the Ends aforesaid; And by Virtue hereof to enact, constitute, and frame, such just and equal Laws, Ordinances, Acts, Constitutions and Offices, from time to time, as shall be thought most meet and convenient for the General good of the Colony; unto which we promise all due submission and obedience. In Witness whereof we have hereunto subscribed our names at Cape Cod the eleventh of November, in the Reign of our Sovereign Lord, King James of England, France and Ireland, the eighteenth, and of Scotland the fifty-fourth. Anno Domini, 1620."
There followed the signatures of 41 of the 102 passengers, 37 of whom were Separatists fleeing religious persecution in Europe. This Compact established the first basis in the New World for written laws. Half of the colony failed to survive the first winter, but the remainder lived on and prospered.
How different indeed. If we lose the Christian culture we lose America.
All religions and all cultures are not equal. It is time we taught it to our kids.
Distributed by www.ChristianWorldviewNetwork.com
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Re: What if the Pilgrims Had Been Muslims?
| Posted On: 04/17/07 01:38:00 PM |
Age 47, CA |
Hate to rain on this parade but it is a fallacy that this is a "Great Christian Nation". Even prior to gaining independence, there were many attrocities commited by the Colonists. During the French & Indian war, a militia responded to a raid by Huron Indians not by pursuing the offenders but by retaliating against the first tribe they could find. The one tribe they decided to slaughter was one that did convert to Christianity and they all died Praying for Jesus to forgive their oppressors.
The Declaration of Independence directly violates Romans 13: 1-2 calling for submission to authority. 2 warns that whosover rebels against authority rebels against what God has established.
God obviously had plans for this nation. We need to understand that he allowed our rebellion to run it's couse for HIS purpose.
Most Americans claim to be Christian but our conduct says otherwise.
By the way, Islam does forbid murder too and they behead thier murderers, not lock them up in celss that are more luxurious than many homes in other nations.
If it is ok for us to strap bombs on computers and send them fourth to blow up "Those evil Muslims" then it is difficult to condem them for doing the same thing manually.
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- Re: Re: What if the Pilgrims Had Been Muslims?
| Posted On: 04/17/07 10:00:29 PM | | Age 19, MN |
Query: How do you know what you are saying is true?
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Re: What if the Pilgrims Had Been Muslims?
| Posted On: 04/17/07 01:33:04 PM |
Age 37, NY |
Actually murder and suicide bombing are against the law in Iraq (and Israel). It is true that those who do it feel justified by their religion. It also seems to me that the Bible condones all types of immoralitykilling, rape, and slavery for example. History has shown this to be true. It wasnt until 1865 that America thought it immoral to own slaves (almost 100 years after the creation of the constitution). But even then people killed to keep it. The morality that shows that it was wrong came in spite of what the Bible says. The 10 Commandments? Its hardly a complete moral guide. The first 4 arent even about morality. What about killing? Is killing wrong because God said not to do it or did he say not to do it because its wrong? Without law #6, would you not understand that killing is wrong? Every civilization throughout history no matter their religion understood this. Could you not? It basically boils down to in group/out group. When humans lived in tribes it was justifiable to kill others outside of your group (but not in). As civilization progressed, so did the definitions of groups. The problem with Christianity and the Muslim religions is that they approach the world with a first century in group/out group mentality. This is why slavery existed all the way until the 19th century and all the wars in the 21st century are of a religious nature. To use your poor constructed analogy; If the pilgrims were Muslims (and presumably the worlds current superpower), it would be the Christians who strap bombs to themselves.
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- Re: Re: What if the Pilgrims Had Been Muslims?
| Posted On: 04/18/07 01:38:34 PM | | Age 63, OH |
You have made some observations and it is understandable that you have come to some of the conclusions that you have. 1st - Are all people what they claim to be. Someone once asked "do you know how you can tell if someone is lying"- answer "if there lips are moving". if someone claims to be a car and sleeps in the garage that does not make him a car. Jesus said the way to life is narrow and few will find it. So there are many who claim to be Christians but there are few that are. Do not judge Jesus by what people who claim to be Christians do, but by what he said and did. 2 - You say all cultures knew it was wrong to murder. The Aztecs murdered so many that the Spaniards seen mountains of human hearts when they came over. The Muslims think it is even good to murder anyone who thinks different than their group. Jesus said love your enemies. True Christians do not think it is OK to murder just because someone thinks different. 3 - You say what makes murder wrong. - murder is wrong because it is against the truth. God is a reality and He is life. Murder is against what is real and true. Not all killing is murder and that is where most people go wrong because of their lack of wisdom. God is a God who is for the poor and the weak so He wants us to protect the poor and the weak. Anything short of this and our example is a lie. If our actions fall short of justice then we are teaching lies by example and that is what makes it wrong. Justice is real and true and we should strive to treat our fellow man with mercy and justice and anything short of that is a lie and not the truth. We should think on these things whatever is true, pure,and beautiful. Can any rational man be against these things. Lou
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- Re: Re: Re: What if the Pilgrims Had Been Muslims?
| Posted On: 04/19/07 02:39:50 AM | | Age 37, NY |
Oh no, Im not judging what Christians like Coach Dave say or do. My point is that the Bible is inconsistent and vague about morals and sometimes down right immoral by todays standards to be claimed as any kind of universal standard. Among other things, the Bible clearly condones slavery and Jesus said and did nothing to refute that. To put it as simple as possible, our understanding that it is wrong doesnt come from the Bible. It is true that there are huge discrepancies in what Christians think make morality. This is even more evidence that the Bible is a faulty moral document. If it were the word of God, why would he have allowed such confusion and room for interpretation? As for the Aztecs, and those in Abrahams day, human sacrifice was not considered murder. Thankfully, today we think that it is. Again, this doesnt come from the Bible (even in the New Testament, Jesus had to be sacrificed). The Christians, Muslims, and Aztecs all had wrong. Fortunately, the Aztec way of life as passed into history, but unfortunately, the others gruesomely persist.
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- JESUS TAUGHT AGAINST SLAVERY
| Posted On: 04/21/07 12:48:56 AM | | Age 63, OH |
You say Jesus does not refute slavery. How else would you take do unto others as you would have them do unto you. To sacrifice another human has always been forbidden by God.God did not sacrifice another person for sin. but God became a man and came down to earth at a time when the religious men were so sinful that God knew they would kill Him. He did not sacrifice Himself but offered Himself to man knowing what they would do. I have been on a search for the truth for almost forty years and find truth and beauty two things worth looking for. Lou
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- SLAVERY
| Posted On: 04/22/07 08:10:42 PM | | Age 37, NY |
No matter what the method or reasons, God deemed it necessary for Jesus to be killed. I think its kind of sickand this is the whole foundation for Christianityhuman sacrifice for our sins. The Old Testament is full instructions for slavery and human sacrifice. Jesus may have said do unto others but then he is contradicted by Paul in Ephesians 6: 5 Slaves, be obedient to those who are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in the sincerity of your heart, as to Christand 1 Timothy 6:1-4 1All who are under the yoke as slaves are to regard their own masters as worthy of all honor so that the name of God and our doctrine will not be spoken against. 2Those who have believers as their masters must not be disrespectful to them because they are brethren, but must serve them all the more, because those who partake of the benefit are believers and beloved Teach and preach these principles. 3If anyone advocates a different doctrine and does not agree with sound words, those of our Lord Jesus Christ, and with the doctrine conforming to godliness, 4he is conceited and understands nothing; but he has a morbid interest in controversial questions and disputes about words, out of which arise envy, strife, abusive language, evil suspicionsAll this is understandable because at the time the Christian religion was created, slavery was the norm. The authors reflect this in their writing. Fortunately we have come to understand that it is wrong but not because of what the Bible says.
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- Re: SLAVERY
| Posted On: 04/23/07 05:12:41 PM | | Age 63, OH |
Justice and mercy are foundation stones that the city of God are
built on. I John 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is MERCIFUL and JUST
and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.
We can see that God is MERCIFUL and JUST. If God was not merciful He
would not have died for us. If God was not JUST He WOULD NOT HAVE HAD
TO DIE FOR US. God is so just that sin could not be forgiven without
the penalty, which was death, being paid. Many people today seem to
think that God can just wink and forgive our sin. God could never do
this because He is JUST. God is so just that His justice required that
the penalty for our every sin to be paid for in full. No one could pay
for this sin. So we were all doomed to death and hell. God loved us
and wanted to save us. But His justice demanded that the penalty of
death for our every sin be paid in full. So the only way we could be
saved was for God to come down and pay the penalty of death to the
executioner. God was the only one that was just and had not sinned. If
God had not been just He would have been unable to pay the penalty of
death for us. But God had remained just throughout all eternity. So He
was able to pay the bill. And the fact that He was just meant that
someone had to pay the penalty of death. So the only answer was for
God to come down and pay our penalty for our sin. That penalty was
paid by God when He hung on the cross for He was JUST.---- I have another article that tells why the penalty of death was necessary. It is too long to put on this site. If you are interested I can send it to you if you request it. lounewton13472yahoo.com
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- SLAVERY
| Posted On: 04/24/07 01:10:11 PM | | Age 37, NY |
So you agree that slavery is justified in the Bible or at least contradictory in its guidelines? 1. In the Bible there are many other inconsistencies on what God believes is sin and what he thinks just. Like I said before, some of things he thinks are not sins, you and I would consider immoral. 2. If God is all knowing and all-powerful. There is nothing he CANT do. So he could just wink his eye and do what ever he wants. There are no reasons given in the Bible to make us think that he wouldnt arbitrarily change his will at any time for whatever reason. 3. If death is the ultimate price for sin, why is Jesus still alive? Three days in the grave compared to eternity is hardly a price to pay. Id rather be dead for three days and then live forever in heaven than spend life or even a year in prison. Wouldnt you?
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- Re: SLAVERY
| Posted On: 04/26/07 12:41:09 AM | | Age 63, OH |
You have misunderstood me. I do not think that the Bible condones slavery and I have been reading it for 35 years. The more I seek God and get to know Him the more I understand His viewpoint. I or you can not stop a small tornado let alone create the universe so it is not difficult for me to be humble before God. I think for any man to presume that he knows better than God is the ultimate of fools. God can not do anything; He can not lie. He can not be unjust. It was not the 3 days in the grave but the death on the cross that was the difficult thing for a God who never sinned. To have this done to Him by His children was the hard part. Lou
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Re: What if the Pilgrims Had Been Muslims?
| Posted On: 04/16/07 03:10:15 PM |
Age 40, MN |
I don't really like to take someone on here at a personal level - but I have RARELY read anything quite like this. Look at his descriptions of the students: "round faced self impressed know it all" (he determined that after one comment?) "bored, overweight humanist" (are you kidding me, why would you describe a kid like that?!) "jockish looking young man" (who of course says 'the Bible teaches murder is wrong. That's what America believes.') "clean cut captain of the football team looking young man" (who also has the right answer of 'murder is wrong because God said it is')
Coach, if this group is so brainwashed and indoctrinated by the public schools how did they come up with this along with your totally politically incorrect quote from another student who you say said "The Koran teaches it is okay to kill jews and infidels." How did you find these people with these views in a Godless public school? Or did you?
I have also never seen any writer pat themselves on the back so long and so hard "I baited the hook", "I set the hook", "I eased in", "I drew them back in", "I gently corrected them", "I led them". Oh man - give me a break!! With all these stereotypes and 'perfectly' led discusssion - I really have to wonder Coach - how much of it really happened the way you wrote this?
When we will learn the Christian faith can rise on it's own without embellishments and manufactured evil kids and institutions?
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Re: What if the Pilgrims Had Been Muslims?
| Posted On: 04/16/07 10:57:07 AM |
Age 40, MN |
Not all Christian evangelistic missions were forceful, but many, many were. The below is from Christianity Today -not a secular source. I think they were using the Bible as their guidebook and don't you think it's a copout to say they were 'misguided' Christians while those who use the Koran violently are true 'muslims.? I have great issues with Islam too, but it's not as simple as your article paints it:
It was not always the natives' disbelief that impeded their
conversion to Christianity. In many instances, they were open to
learning more about the Spaniards' God. They were even willing
to accept the Christian faith. However, a number of other
factors often stood in the way.
By far, the greatest impediment to successful evangelization
was the brutality of the European settlers. In many instances,
the conquistadors employed violence to force natives to accept
baptism. But often this brutality only provoked dogged
resistance and outright rejection of the soldiers' beliefs.
In a letter in 1601, Brother Juan de Escalona laments, "We
cannot preach the gospel now, for it is despised by these people
[the natives of modern day New Mexico] on account of our great
offenses and the harm we have done to them."
Countless Indians lost their lives through slaughter, mass
suicides, and European diseases. Those who managed to survive
times of war were subjected to cruel mistreatment in mines. Or
they were placed under the encomienda system, a form of virtual
slavery.
A Mayan objected to the behavior of the Spaniards: "The true
God, the true Dios. came, but this was the origin too of
affliction for us: The origin of tax, of our giving them alms; of
trial through the grabbing of petty cacao money, of trial by
blowgun; stomping the people; violent removal; forced debt, debt
created by false testimony; petty litigation, harassment, violent
removal; the collaboration with the Spaniards on the part of the
priests,...and all the while the mistreated were further
maltreated....But it will happen that tears will come to the eyes
of God the Father. The justicia of God the Father will settle on
the whole world."
In some cases, the Spaniards brutality provoked Indians to
seek revenge. On the frontier, in areas of what are now the
United States (Florida, Georgia, the Carolinas, and Virginia),
many missionary friars were killed as soon as they lacked the
protection of Spanish arms.
Don Gonzalo, a 70-year-old Nicaraguan Indian, writes his
opinion of Spaniards he had known: "Ultimately, it turns out that
one must conclude that Christians are by no means good....Where
are the good ones? To be sure, I myself have certainly not yet
known any good ones, only bad ones."
It comes as no surprise that many Indians rejected
Christianity not for Christianity's sake, but for the examples of
those who called themselves Christian.
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Re: What if the Pilgrims Had Been Muslims?
| Posted On: 04/16/07 10:38:16 AM |
Age 40, MN |
Most of the above is pretty accurate - this adds just a few details. So Coach, was murder of the Indians wrong because of their heathen (non-Christian) beliefs? It was bad here, but even more monstrous in Mexico and South America to civilizations who who not convert to Christianity. Or was it okay then, but would be wrong now? And if it's wrong now who do we have to thank for that? Certainly couldn't be the godless public schools. (I'm not saying there weren't legitimate battles and wars - although one could question all of them - but there were also systematic elimination of tribes and 'heathen' people) Just curious.
In England Squanto met Samoset of the Wabanake (Wab NAH key) Trib who had also left his native home with an English explorer. They both returned together to Patuxet in 1620. When they arrived, the village was deserted and there were skeletons everywhere. Everyone in the village had died from an illness the English slavers had left behind. Squanto and Samoset went to stay with a neighboring village of Wampanoags.
By the time fall arrived things were going much better for the Pilgrims, thanks to the help they had received. The
corn they planted had grown well. There was enough food to last the winter. They were living comfortably in their Indian-style wigwams and had also managed to build one
European-style building out of squared logs. This was their church. They were now in better health, and they knew more
about surviving in this new land. The Pilgrims decided to have a thanksgiving feast to celebrate their good fortune.
They had observed thanksgiving feasts in November as religious obligations in England for many years before coming to the New World.
The Algonkian tribes held six thanksgiving festivals during the year. In late fall, the harvest festival gave thanks for the food they had grown. When the
Indians sat down to the "first thanksgiving" with the Pilgrims, it was really the fifth thanksgiving of the year
for them!
For three days the Wampanoags feasted with the Pilgrims. It was a special time of friendship between two very different groups of people. A peace and friendship agreement was made between Massasoit and Miles Standish.
It would be very good to say that this friendship lasted a long time; but, unfortunately, that was not to be.
More English people came to America, and they were not in need of help from the Indians as were the original Pilgrims. Many of the newcomers forgot the help the Indians had given them. Mistrust started to grow and the friendship weakened. The Pilgrims started telling their Indian
neighbors that their Indian religion and Indian customs were wrong. The Pilgrims displayed an intolerance toward the Indian religion similar to the intolerance displayed toward the less popular religions in Europe. The relationship deteriorated and within a few years the children of the people who ate together at the first Thanksgiving were killing one another in what came to be called King Phillip's War.
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- Re: Re: What if the Pilgrims Had Been Muslims?
| Posted On: 04/16/07 04:16:27 PM | | Age 63, OH |
There is a big difference between the pilgrims and the puritans. The pilgrims came over first and their writings lead me to believe that they were true Christians. The puritans who followed professed to be Christians but their actions lead me to doubt that fact. They seemed to be like many of the people who fill our churches now and are religious but not Christian. Lou
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- Re: Re: Re: What if the Pilgrims Had Been Muslims?
| Posted On: 04/17/07 12:28:19 PM | | Age 40, MN |
I think the Puritans would be quite surprised at your characterization of them. It may 'fit' your world view to call them non-Christians, but that just wasn't the case. Deal with the difficulty of this,not just the easy answer that isn't factual. This is from noted theologian Dr. Logan, a pretty conservative voice::
"Puritans" wanted to remain as part of the English establishment, working for biblical reform from within. Even as they emigrated to New England, they affirmed their "Englishness" and saw the main purpose of their new colony as being that of a biblical witness, a "city on a hill" which would set an example of biblical righteousness in church and state for Old England and the entire world to see. As deeply committed covenant theologians, they emphasized especially strongly the corporate righteousness of their entire community before God.
"Pilgrims" wanted to achieve "reformation without tarrying," even if it meant separating from their church and their nation. While they continued to think of themselves as English, their emphasis was on their new political identity and spiritual identity. Because of their passionate commitment to the necessity of reformation immediate and without compromise, they emphasized especially strongly individual righteousness before God.
What united Massachusetts Bay and Plymouth, what united both Puritans and Pilgrims was far more significant than what distinguished them. All children of the Reformation, they knew that salvation was by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone. And they knew this because they took, as their authority, Scripture alone.
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- Re: Re: Re: Re: What if the Pilgrims Had Been Muslims?
| Posted On: 04/18/07 02:43:05 PM | | Age 63, OH |
I would take issue with your statement " because they took as their authority scripture alone." Here is a quote from Martin Luther himself:
It is for Christ's sake that we believe in the Scriptures, but it is
not for the Scriptures' sake that we believe in Christ.
... Martin Luther (1483-1546)
They took as their authority CHRIST ALONE by Martins own words. They did not believe in Christ because they scriptures said so; but they believed the scriptures because Christ said so. One way is the way of life and the other is the way of death. Jesus said the letter of the law brings death but the Spirit of the law brings life. To look to the Book is Idolatry. For it is part of the creation. We are told in the book to look to the Author of the Book for He is the Creator of all. The pharisees made this mistake and that is why they did not recognize the God they claimed to worship when He came to them. They had created an Idol in their mind what they thought God was like by their understanding of the scriptures. Jesus corrected them when He said " you look to the scriptures because in them you think you have eternal life when the scriptures point to me." The Bible is just words on a page if we read them on our own. But if we turn to God and the Holy Spirit speaks the words to us then they are the Word of God. The Devil spoke the words of God but the same words were the Word of God when God spoke them. When God said let there be light, there was light. When the Devil or man speaks the same words nothing happens. Try this sometime. Walk into a dark room and say let there be light. I have never tried it because there is no doubt in my mind what would happen. But one time I seen a tornado heading right for my fathers house as I was standing on the porch. I seen the neighbors barn explode to nothing and it was 100 yards from me. The Holy Spirit said rebuke the storm. The hair on my neck and arms are standing on end right now thinking about it. My mind thought that is crazy and I cried to Jesus please save us. Then my lips just seemed to speak on their own. I shouted at the top of my lungs and rebuked the tornado. I watched it make a 90 degree turn and take out the barn across the street and then go the the next barn across the street. It then made a 90 degree turn back to our side of the street and went on its way. Over a hundred people were killed by that tornado but we walked around the property and could not find so much as a broken branch. We looked and there was a long stem yellow rose in the middle of the yard It was not missing one petal and my dad did not have any yellow roses on his property. As we looked at it we all just started to weep. If I would have read some scripture of my own accord I believe that I would have died and my fathers house would have been destroyed. That is the difference between the Bible and The Word of God. Lou
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- Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What if the Pilgrims Had Been Muslims?
| Posted On: 04/19/07 10:50:21 AM | | Age 40, MN |
Your disagreement is with Dr. Logan who I was quoting:/
Dr. James C. Logan taught for many years at Wesley Theological Seminary. He is a highly respected professor of theology and evangelism. His latest book, How Great A Flame: Contemporary Lessons from the Wesleyan Revival, published by Discipleship Resources, is a collection of his 2003 Denman Lectures sponsored by the Foundation for Evangelism. He regularly writes for Christian History and Christianity Today magazine. / I suppose being somewhat of a troublemaker maybe you think his words would make it seem he wasn't Christian, since you did in fact judge the puritans based ont their actions.
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- TROUBLEMAKERS
| Posted On: 04/21/07 01:06:37 AM | | Age 63, OH |
First of all I did not judge the puritans. But said that I did not think that their actions were the type of actions that I would choose as I would the pilgrims. But I did certainly did not judge their heart. ------------------------
He that begins by loving Christianity better than truth will proceed by
loving his own sect or church better than Christianity, and end in
loving himself better than all.
... Samuel Taylor Coleridge (1772-1824)
here are words that I see as very wise that I read today.---- By the way here is a list of troublemakers--- Joseph,Moses,Gideon,David,Elijah,Daniel, Shadrach,Meshach,Abednego,Daniel,Isiah,
Jerimiah,Ezekial,The 12 disciples,Paul,Stephen,and most of all Jesus.
Thank you so much for the kind remark, I did
not think myself worthy of the remark but I am honored. Lou
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- Re: TROUBLEMAKERS
| Posted On: 04/23/07 11:56:54 AM | | Age 40, MN |
I was actually referring to myself as 'the troublemaker' because I seem to be so out of step with so many on this website, but will now rescind that label, since you have and I believe correctly so, pointed out that it can be a good attribute - one I am probably not worthy of.
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- Re: Re: TROUBLEMAKERS
| Posted On: 04/26/07 12:50:21 AM | | Age 63, OH |
We agree on something that neither of us deserve the title of troublemakers but it is something that we can both aspire to. Don't you think that no one is going to be saved because of correct doctrine or kept out because of incorrect doctrine. I think God judges all as He says by the intentions of their heart. Here is hoping that the mercy and grace of The Lord Jesus Christ who is the Creator of us all can move both of our hearts to love Him with all of our hearts and both be saved by His divine mercy. Lou
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- Re: Re: Re: TROUBLEMAKERS
| Posted On: 05/01/07 04:52:49 PM | | Age 40, MN |
Lou, these are some very profound thoughts and I agree with you. Thanks
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- Re: Re: Re: Re: What if the Pilgrims Had Been Muslims?
| Posted On: 04/18/07 01:56:09 PM | | Age 63, OH |
You have misquoted me. I did not say that the puritans were non Christian. I said that the actions of many of them lead me to doubt the fact that they were Christians. I stand behind this remark. There is a difference between doubting and judging. I was not ready to condemn any of the puritans but simply thought some of there actions were not lead of the Holy Spirit. The witch trials would be one example. the trouble with the indians came when the puritans came over; the pilgrims got along with them. I stand by what I said; many churches that I have been to remind me of the Puritans. They claimed to be separate from the world but were not much different in reality. I am looking for a church like the pilgrims. One that professes to be weak and poor. I would love to be part of a fellowship like that and would drive many miles to be part. The only two churches that Jesus said "I have nothing against you" to ; were the church that thought it was weak and the church that thought that it was poor. I am poor and I am weak so I would fit right in. Lou
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Re: What if the Pilgrims Had Been Muslims?
| Posted On: 04/14/07 10:34:02 PM |
Age 19, MN |
Coach...that was one of the best articles I've read by you. This was really, really good....
God Bless and have a great day!!
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- Re: Re: What if the Pilgrims Had Been Muslims?
| Posted On: 04/15/07 02:49:18 PM | | Age 35, BOTSWANA |
Did you notice how the humanists were fat in this essay? That was horrid. And what kind of teacher ridicules a student about his wieght? (An ex-teacher, usually.) I feel sorry for those students. Did you notice how you asked them leading questions and how you set up a false opposition between "America" and "Muslims"? When you frame the discussion that way, there is only one answer that will get you to be quiet and give the kids alone. This was not a learning moment. If nothing else, you confused the kids. YOU were the one who first mentioned religion, not them. And your made-up facts. That the Iraqi govt is educating kids to blow themselves up? Where did you get that? Do you think that the surviving members of parliament were high-fiving each other when they were blown up in the line for Freedom Fries last week? I mean, the ones that still had arms, at least. You have no business in a classroom.
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- Pardon...
| Posted On: 04/17/07 10:06:35 PM | | Age 19, MN |
but I'm not the coach...thank you.
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- Re: Re: Re: What if the Pilgrims Had Been Muslims?
| Posted On: 04/16/07 10:05:29 PM | | Age 47, OH |
Don't feel sorry for the students. Ultimately they weren't fooled by leading questions, misleading premises and circular logic. Many of them ripped up the business cards Daubenmire gave them and left angry and indignant according to Daubenmire who gave a different version of this story on his radio show.
I am in sales so I tend to see things from a sales point of view. I sell medical equipment while Daubenmire sells Christian ideology. He tries to anyway. I think that if a salesman enters a room full of potential customers and gives a presentation that causes many of the potential customers to leave pissed off than that is just poor salesmanship. Even if you get one student who responds positively, you have lost the others FOREVER.
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- Re: Re: Re: What if the Pilgrims Had Been Muslims?
| Posted On: 04/16/07 05:03:13 PM | | Age 63, OH |
Coach did not say that the humanist were fat. He said that one humanist student was overweight. Coach can not help if a person is overweight. Would you suggest that he lie and call him thin. Someone could argue that your statement is hateful towards overweight people by inferring that coach was saying it was a derogatory statement to be overweight. Coach did not say anything against the students character. He simply said that he was overweight. You are the one who seems to imply that to be overweight is something terrible. The only other statement is "a round faced student" which is simply the shape of someones face and has nothing to do with being overweight.You say coach said the Iraqi government was educating kids to hate and kill. That is not what he said. He said Muslims were being taught by their governments in some cases to kill and hate. How could anyone who is informed argue that point. Many Muslim governments are doing just that and many more are watching the religious schools in their country do this. We see on the TV everyday Muslims killing Muslims in Iraq and other places; but I have never seen any people in America dancing in the streets because they were happy because of this. Everyone I know is sad when they here of innocent women and children being killed just because of their beliefs. Anyone who kills another because they believe differently is NOT following God. If someone believes they have to defend their God it is evidence that the god they worship is a false god. For any real God can defend Himself; but if one worships a false god then that person knows in their heart that the god they worship can not walk or talk so they need to defend that god. You say coach brought up a FALSE opposition between America and Muslims. The Muslim fundamentalist attacked this country and declared war on America. There is no false opposition but a real opposition. What do you recommend we do; should we not oppose those who want to destroy us and just leave them kill us. We oppose the Muslims who teach people to hate and kill. I oppose any one who teaches someone to hate someone just because they believe differently. I oppose the Popes who claimed to be Christian and sent armies into Palestine. I also oppose the Muslims who sent armies into Italy and Spain to conquer in the name of religion. Neither one were followers of a true God. Jesus Christ told us to love our enemies and real Christians take His words seriously. I have never been to Botswana but I do know the Kalahari Desert is there. I also know that the only river in the world that does not empty into the sea but empties into the inland Okayango river delta is there. Have you ever been to the delta or the desert. Wishing you well in Botswana. Lou
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GOD LED THE PILGRIMS
| Posted On: 04/12/07 09:31:28 PM |
Age 63, OH |
Before the pilgrims came to this country God prepared a place for them. He sent a English explorer to the coast of Mass. and that explorer took a Indian captive and took him to England to show the King. That Indian was taught the English language and then he talked another English explorer in taking him back to his native land. While the Indian was gone his entire tribe had been wiped out by some disease. There was not one survivor; so the Indian, Samoset had really been saved by the hand of God from this disease by having him captured by the explorer. The Land on the coast of Mass. was all heavily wooded and land was difficult to clear in those days before chain saws. The stumps were harder to deal with than the trees. As a result a cleared spot of land where Samoset's village had perished was of a premium value. But none of the local Indians claimed this spot because they were afraid for the whole village which had been there had all died. So the spot that Samoset's village was on stayed empty.
When the Pilgrims came down the coast looking for a clear spot of land so they could plant crops they found the empty spot of Samoset's village and settled there. They really thanked God for the clearing for they did not have time to clear land, build buildings for shelter, and plant crops before winter.
The methods the Pilgrims used for farming that had worked in England did not work very well in this land and a lot of them starved to death that winter. They were down to a ration of three kernels of corn per meal per person at one time. That spring they looked up and saw Samoset walking into his old village, he had been dropped off by the English explorer. Samoset had already been to a neighboring village and found out that his whole tribe had perished. The other indians had not helped the pilgrims because they looked upon them as competitors. Samoset felt alone and wanted to go back to where he had lived. So Samoset was thankful that the Pilgrims were there and when he came and showed the Pilgrims how to plant corn and survive in this new land they were mighty thankful for Samoset.
The Pilgrims were so serious about following God that many were put in prison for going against the King and obeying God instead. They were a very modest and pious people. When Samoset came walking into the village he was wearing nothing but a loin cloth which did not fit their idea of Godly dress. But they could not believe that a native who used to live in that very village could speak English and was glad that they were there. After Samoset showed them how to survive in this new land and they learned of his whole story they could see that God had saved both Samoset and them by His mighty hand.
Reading about the Pilgrims is just like reading about how God saved Israel in the Bible. Brant I really like what you wrote, and Glen I like your response to Brant. God is interested in the condition of our heart and if our heart is right with God we will be interested in the world that God put us in. God put us in this world to be the light of the world. The love the Pilgrims showed a naked lonely Indian and the love that naked Indian showed the Pilgrims, changed the way the neighboring Indians felt about the Pilgrims. They became their friends and they all ended up having a thanksgiving feast. You see the Indians were fearful of the empty village where everyone had perished. They were afraid the curse would spread to them. But the Pilgrims came and their God broke the curse. So they were both thankful for one another.
The Pilgrims started the feast by putting three kernels of corn on everyones plate and nothing else. They all ate the three kernels of corn; lest they forget what God had done for them all. You see the first white men came to this country and by God's leading became friends with the natives instead of enemies.
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