You Ain’t Seen Nothin’ Yet Salvation Army President Predicts Demise of Church
Part Two
Is it beneficial to question whether Christians should have Christmas trees?Sure.Is it necessary to question whether Christmas trees are green?The doctrine of justification has been long settled.To open up the doctrine for the sake of conversation screams of a hidden agenda.But that is precisely what Brian McLaren would like to do.
While Mr. McLaren’s framing of the issue is under the guise of, “Let’s just open up the issue for discussion,” does Mr. McLaren know where he wants this conversation to go?It sure seems like it.He just seems to recognize that if he does not take a slow, meandering, deconstructionist path, he might be labeled for what he is.
“Is getting individual souls into heaven the focal point of the Gospel?I’d have to say, ‘No,’” states Mr. McLaren.Sure seems like the conversation is closed.
Mr. McLaren considers the classic understanding of penal substitution as “cosmic child abuse.”Is it any wonder that Brian thought the manager in Hotel Rwanda was a better example of love than Jesus in The Passion of the Christ?
The new bad theology is mangled justification.That means we have no further need for the Bible, Jesus or the cross.Christianity will be nothing more than a work righteous religion on the same level of Islam or Buddhism.
Christianity will no longer be about forgiveness of sins for the glory of God.The cross is no longer about satisfying the wrath of God.Faith is no longer about being in a right relationship with the Creator and inheriting eternal life.
Now, let’s put on our General Booth goggles and take a look into the future of Christianity.What will be the result of this bad theology?
Universalism.
If the emergents have their way, Jesus Christ will no longer be the exclusive way to everlasting life, nobody will go to hell and everyone will go to Heaven.
Brian McLaren offers this oxymoronic defense.“I am not embracing a traditional universalist position, but I am trying to raise the question, ‘When God created the universe, did he have two purposes in mind—one being to create some people who would forever enjoy blessing and mercy, and another to create a group who would forever suffer torment, torture, and punishment? What is our view of God? A God who plans torture? A God who has an essential, eternal quality of hatred? Is God love, or is God love and hate?’”
Straw man aside, that is like stating, “I am not saying I think everyone is going to go to heaven, I’m just saying that God is so loving He won’t send anyone to hell.”
In 1759, William Romaine presented, “The Doctrine of Imputed Righteousness Defended.”This was an effort to fend off the advances of the Catholic merit system (infused righteousness) into Protestant circles.The doctrine of justification that Luther had rescued was under assault.Here is what William Romaine begged.I have taken the liberty of replacing “Catholicism” with “Emergent”.
“A sinner made righteous by the righteousness of Christ is the doctrine upon which a church stands or falls.Upon it our church was established, and has long stood; but do we stand upon it now?Are we all champions for the protestant doctrine, or are we in general departed from it?Alas! Our enemies can tell, with triumph they tell of the increase of the emergent interest among us.And why does it increase?Whence is it that they make so many converts?Is it not because our people are not well established in the protestant doctrine?If it was taught and preached more, our churches would not be so empty as they are, nor the emergent houses so full.Many of our people know not what it is to be a protestant, and therefore they become an easy prey to the emergents, who are so busy and successful in making converts.”
Our new bad theology is redefined justification.The result can only lead to universalism.Mr. McLaren might try to obfuscate his position by saying he does not believe in “traditional universalism”, but universalism by any name (or with any adjective) is heresy.Heresy means people will go to hell.
Listen to William Romaine.“I fear this may be true; but is it not alarming, and ought it not to stir up the clergy, to try to put a stop to the spreading of the emergents?May the Lord raise up faithful and able men to defend His righteousness against them who have established a meritorious righteousness of their own, and will not submit to the righteousness of God.”
If you choke on the squishy gospel of the seeker sensitive movement, you ain’t seen nothing yet.
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Re: You Aint Seen Nothin YetSalvation Army President Predicts Demise of Church
Posted On: 01/26/07 06:23:30 PM
Age 31, WA
Thank you for the wonderful article. Jesus' life, miracle, works, and his many teachings will not save anyone from the torments of hell. It's only by His death and resurrection that we are finally justified and are saved. He had to go to the cross. Without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sin. The cross of Christ is and ought to be the center of everything we are and do!
Let us stop watering down the gospel!
In His Hands
CGR Click here to reply to this post
Re: You Aint Seen Nothin YetSalvation Army President Predicts Demise of Church
Re: You Aint Seen Nothin YetSalvation Army President Predicts Demise of Church
Posted On: 01/23/07 03:40:27 PM
Age 38, MO
Great article, Todd. I loved your ending too. I have been warning and warning of this stuff for the last year, including purpose driven and willow creek playing a part in this downslide into universalism. I am getting some who argue and say that all emergent churches are straying from the Bible. My answer to them is, #1. Why would you want to be associated with a group where their leaders encourage questioning Biblical truths? #2. If, like you say, your emergent church isn't straying from the Bible or practicing these mystical rituals they are known for, what makes it emergent? They usually say it's because their better at reaching people for Christ. Putting rear ends in the seats, maybe, but seeing a conversion of souls, I don't think so. What do they think the churches of the last 2000 years have been doing? God's servants from the past, and yes, present have been sending missionaries long before a lot of these young emergents were born. The people in this movement are either in denial of what their leaders promote and stand for, or they know it and agree. Click here to reply to this post
Re: You Aint Seen Nothin Yet
Posted On: 01/23/07 11:12:09 AM
Age 41, WA
Having been raised in The Salvation Army, parents being Officers (Pastors), and currently work for them, I'm saddened to see The Salvation Army move away from the fire of It's founder William Booth, as they are now teaching at the School for Officers Training in California, Open Theism and these same teachers hold to the Annihilationism doctrine. They have changed the National Slogan from "Heart to God, Hand to Man" to "Doing the most good". Click here to reply to this post
Re: You Aint Seen Nothin YetSalvation Army President Predicts Demise of Church
Posted On: 01/23/07 09:16:17 AM
Age 54, OK
The only reason people keep bringing up this argument is to cover up something. We are all free to make a choice; Heaven or hell!!! The only way to get some peoples attention is to have the promise of punishment over their heads. Choose God's way and receive Heaven. Choose sin and receive hell! If there was no hell (punishment) how long do you think this world would last? The "Church" will never die, but I can't say that about the rest of creation! Click here to reply to this post
Re: Re: You Aint Seen Nothin YetSalvation Army President Predicts Demise of Church
Posted On: 01/24/07 02:04:46 AM
Age 63, OH
You say the church will never die; does not that depend on which church you refer to. Israel thought they would exist as a nation forever because of the promise made to Abraham. But Israel broke the covenant not God. Even after they broke it God was slow to anger. Ist He sent Judgement, when that did not turn Israel God exiled Israel to Babylon. When God returned Israel and she killed God's Human Body on the Cross after Jesus laid His life down; then God let the nation of Israel be destroyed. And for 2000 years there was no nation of Israel. We should all take this lesson to heart. Israel fell because she took for granted that she was God's people. Will we be immune if we do the same as Israel. There was always two women in most stories. One to be like the true bride; and one the "bride" that Jesus does not know. The "great prostitutes" sin in The Revelation is adultery. You can not commit adultery against Christ unless you claim to be married to Him. There are only two women in The Revelation the same as the rest of the book. They are the two churches; and both claim to belong to Christ. But only one is the true bride of Jesus. The true bride is humble and responds like the sheep in Matt. 25. The false bride is self assured like the goats in Matt 25. The Revelation gives us a very good sign to tell if we are in trouble and need to repent and seek Jesus. The false church says "I am not a widow and I will never mourn". She is boasting that her husband will never die and she will never be separated from him just like the nation of Israel boasted. Lou Click here to reply to this post
Re: Re: You Aint Seen Nothin YetSalvation Army President Predicts Demise of Church
Posted On: 01/24/07 01:32:02 AM
Age 63, OH
Dear brother you are helping McLaren's argument. God is not wanting to PUNISH. God WANTS to have fellowship with all. We have to choose God to be with Him for He forces no one to be with Him. Those who choose God get to be with Him forever; and Satan will not be allowed to torment these anymore. Those who chose Satan's ways are choosing Satan and get to be with Him forever. God however will be in heaven , so without God to restrain Satan where he and his followers will be it will be Hell. We simply get what we choose. God and no Satan makes heaven. Satan and no God makes hell. Lou Click here to reply to this post
Re: You Aint Seen Nothin YetSalvation Army President Predicts Demise of Church
Posted On: 01/23/07 08:41:27 AM
Age 46, TX
God didn't "create people to go to hell." This is childish theology. I would ask these people, do they also believe that God created Satan and his angels to go to hell? The fact is, Satan, angels and people are the only creatures with freewill. We, by definition, have been given the choice to determine our eternal destiny. Animals will not be punished eternally because they are neither good or evil, they don't have a freewill. People who adopt this universalist garbage, are condoning sin and the rejection of Christ - some day, in deep outer darkness, the lost who heard and believed your message of "no one will go to hell," will search for you and demand to know why you didn't warn them. Click here to reply to this post
Re: You Aint Seen Nothin YetSalvation Army President Predicts Demise of Church
Posted On: 01/23/07 07:10:07 AM
Age 50, VA
Just a note to the moderators:
It would be very helpful if you would make use of hyperlinks in your articles, for those of us who may not be familiar with the particular author or event that is being discussed. Click here to reply to this post
Re: You Aint Seen Nothin YetSalvation Army President Predicts Demise of Church
Posted On: 01/22/07 08:30:11 PM
Age 19, VA
Mr. Mclaren has hit upon an interesting point--God creating people to either be saved or punished. But all things considered--God doesn't send animals to hell--God created people to torture them, and those that are saved are the lucky few who escape. Click here to reply to this post
Re: Re: You Aint Seen Nothin YetSalvation Army President Predicts Demise of Church
Posted On: 01/23/07 05:05:38 PM
Age 48, KS
To say that God created man to torture man and that animals don't go to hell is silly. Your right animals don't go to hell but God did not create man to torture man but that man would have the free will to love and obey God. This is a situation in every walk of life. You run a stop sign you get a ticket, you steal a car, you go to jail. Even if we don't get caught at these evils, God sees all and judgement day will come for all. As a very wise person said - I'd rather live and die as if there is a God, than to live as if there isn't a God. Then die and find out God will judge each and every person on judgement day. He did send his son, Jesus, though to show us the way. Animals do not have a soul to go to Heaven, man does; and were his soul rests is up to man. Click here to reply to this post
Re: Re: You Aint Seen Nothin YetSalvation Army President Predicts Demise of Church
Posted On: 01/23/07 12:40:20 PM
Age 42, TX
What are you saying? Do you agree with McLaren or with Todd Friel? God did not create us to torture us. Are you saying He did? Click here to reply to this post
Re: Re: You Aint Seen Nothin YetSalvation Army President Predicts Demise of Church
Posted On: 01/23/07 09:29:44 AM
Age 42, IL
God created us to have fellowsip with him. (Not to torture us) Man/women threw it away by sinning. Our punishment is just. Hell is our due. Yet from the beginning he gave us a way of escape from what we deserve. That is love. Yet people still reject the lifeline, because they reject what Christ did. McClaren tries to redefine God, by ingnoring his holiness and justice. It reduces Christs death to a meaningless gesture. Click here to reply to this post
Re: Re: You Aint Seen Nothin YetSalvation Army President Predicts Demise of Church
Posted On: 01/23/07 07:28:42 AM
Age 70, ME
"What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? . God forbid!
For He saith unto Moses, 'I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion'............O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, 'Why hast thou made me thus?'
Hath not the potter power over the clay of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour and another unto dishonour?
What if God, willing to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction, that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had afore prepared unto glory,
Even us whom He hath called, not of the Jews only but also of the Gentiles? "
Romans 9:14ff
In other words, like it or lump it. Click here to reply to this post
Re: Re: You Aint Seen Nothin YetSalvation Army President Predicts Demise of Church
Posted On: 01/23/07 07:08:31 AM
Age 50, VA
God did NOT create anyone to be tortured. Such 'reasoning' (if it can be called that) is what you get when a finite (and probably unregenerate) mind thinks it analyze God.
God created mankind to have fellowship with him. Man chose sin, and therefore, all have fallen short of the glory of God. God does not have any obligation to save ANYONE. In His mercy and grace, He has provided for and offered salvation for ALL. Even though most refuse His offer, still He chooses to save some. Criticizing Him because He does not save all is like criticizing a man for not getting ALL survivors of a shipwreck into a life boat, when in fact he's been pleading with people to get in. Click here to reply to this post
Re: Re: Re: You Aint Seen Nothin YetSalvation Army President Predicts Demise of Church
Re: You Aint Seen Nothin YetSalvation Army President Predicts Demise of Church
Posted On: 01/22/07 05:19:07 PM
Age 45, FL
Those in the Emerging church movement can try as they might to change the message of the Gospel, but it will all be for not. God doesn't need us to do his bidding, He is the Alpha and the Omega. Jesus already won the fight. Those of us who do not waiver or falter will be with Him in Heaven. We just have to be obedient to His Word. Click here to reply to this post
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