Why I'm Not an Atheist Part 5: On Science and Miracles
Posted: 01/02/2007
Why I'm not an Atheist Part 5: On science and miracles
The Apostle Paul warns in 1 Timothy 6:20 : "O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called."
Several centuries ago, the German astronomer Johann Kepler, justified scientific inquiry in that such investigation was "thinking God's thoughts after him." The scientific method was bathed and developed in a culture that presupposed the existence of God. Many scientific originators of whole branches of science were themselves biblically astute believers.
From that point forward, there was a gradual diversion from that philosophical approach, to a newer, evolving view, deeming science and theology as antithetical disciplines. This view eventually came to a codified perspective in the 19th century, due to voluminous treatises authored by John W. Draper and Andrew Dickson White, which chronicled the alleged war between science and theology. In that same era, Darwin’s Origin of the Species, provided skeptics with a pathway to become "an intellectually fulfilled atheist."
I have been puzzled, from the time of my earliest consideration of the matter, that science is used as a means of discrediting the existence of God. It should never be the objective of Christians to oppose the wonders of scientific progress, but only “science falsely so called;” that is, metaphysics festooned as science.
History certainly documents numerous incidents where the church acted in embarrassing ways to hinder progress. Chief among these is the Roman Catholic Church's ban of the writing of Galileo. But such a prohibition was never a scriptural necessity. Nothing in the Bible would have contradicted Galileo's new cosmological model.
Recently, we have seen a court case which declared Intelligent Design Theory to be a religious dogma, rather than a plausible conclusion of scientific inquiry. That seems to imply that “true science” can never ask the question: “Is this occurrence too complex to be the result of chance or natural selection?” I doubt reason by itself would ever allow such interrogative principle to be excluded by default from any other field of inquiry.
This is one of the greatest areas of doublespeak, in the ongoing debates between atheists and theists. We frequently hear that science confines itself to a naturalistic explanation of events. That is fine as far as it goes. But, when people claim that there is nothing in the universe exclusive to natural explanations, however, they are arguing outside the realm of science, and have become purveyors naturalistic philosophy. That is no longer a methodology of objective inquiry, but a religious-like, dogmatic assumption, upon which foundation only certain conclusions will be allowed to subsist.
Unfortunately, that is often the philosophical edifice of what is defined as "modern science." From this launching pad, we are told that people of the biblical periods, were ignorant as to the workings of science or natural law, so they falsely attributed certain phenomena to the miraculous realm.
In Thomas Paine's 18th century screed against Christianity, The Age of Reason, he makes an argument about miracles that reverberates from the lips of many contemporary skeptics, but which was never very convincing to me. To paraphrase him, he said that if one should hear of a very strange event like a miracle, the veracity of the claim could be answered quite easily. Have we ever seen a miracle he asks? In the same space of time we have heard millions of lies. The odds are then at least millions to one that someone who claims to have seen miracle is a liar, or so he concludes. The irony is that even if all the miracles in the Bible are true reports, the ratio of lies to miracles over time would still be lopsided in favor of the lies.
The problem here is that Paine confuses the statistical correlation of two unrelated events with the possibility that a given event can occur. If we are going to merely prostate to statistical probability, then what about the mathematical challenges against the "molecules to man" type evolution occurring on earth, as was presented by Hoyle, Wickramansinghe and others? Arguments based on probability are shunned or ignored when they present stumbling blocks to the atheist worldview.
As a rebuttal to Paine's charge, I could say that nobody has ever been hit with a brick falling off the EmpireStateBuilding; therefore the odds of it happening are highly unlikely (millions to one). But let's change the circumstances surrounding the claim. Let's say a team of masons procures numerous pallets of bricks on the observation deck. If single bricks are thrown off the deck in rapid succession, while a parade of marching bands perform on the street below, the odds become good that someone will be struck. Since Paine believed that the initial creation itself was a miraculous event, why would he have doubted that miracles of a lesser intervention could also happen? It was because his concept of God precluded belief in them.
Often, the arguments that biblical peoples unnecessarily attributed unusual natural phenomena to God and the realm of the miraculous are made without sensible explication. For example, not many biblical descriptions of miracles are of this nature: A group of dessert nomads sees a Boeing 747 fly over their heads. They all bow down to pay homage to the "great silver bird God." Or Mary tells Joseph she is pregnant with a child from God. Joseph says "Yes, gods impregnating women are quite possible, so let’s not worry about it."
There also seems to be an assumption that if one professes a belief in the supernatural, then it follows that the same individual views miracles as normative and frequently observed events. Such a person may be mockingly called upon to perform miracles, as a magician might dazzle his audience with a series of illusions. This is nothing but gang-tackling a straw man.
I once heard a debate with the late skeptic, Dr. Gordon Stein. He said that if there is a God, he should do a miracle so that anyone but a fool would believe. Such argumentation only shows the extent to which atheists are oblivious to the resilience of their own presuppositions. If Stein had actually seen a miracle, his own biases would likely have caused him to say that while he couldn't explain the event which had just happened, some day he would be able to explain it via naturalistic principles. The Bible on the other hand, is uncanny in its description of human tendencies. When Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead, the record indicated that while many believed, some still doubted. My conclusion is that people, who don't want to believe, won't be persuaded by appearances of the miraculous.
The problems with appeals to science to buttress atheism, is that they require extrapolations of naturalistic philosophies outside the realm of science, and assume the exclusivity of empiricism. I’ve already argued against that.
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Re: Why I'm Not an Atheist Part 5: On Science and Miracles
Posted On: 01/04/07 02:31:15 PM
Age 51, NC
The glaring error in your article involving the initial astronomical references is that the Church was quite opposed to any scientific observations that contradicted official doctrine (eg that the earth was the center of the solar system a/o universe). You seem to suggest that Christianity welcomed open minded scientific thought. Those scientists were branded as heretics by Christians. Scientists may have considered themselves Christians, but the Church and various forms of Christianity up to today is not shy to shout them down if their findings offend them. Click here to reply to this post
Why he is wrong: on infallability and delusion
Posted On: 01/03/07 05:33:18 AM
Age 20, UN
You are making two false and circular assumptions. Firstly you claim that every atheist believes evolution is infallible, which is simply ridiculous. While athiets will admit that evolution is the most credible explanation for the origins of species, we by no means hold it as infallible as religious people do divine intervention. Science is constantly changing to incorporate new discoveries (and when other theories are discredited) which is completely the opposite to what organised religion does. Secondly you assume that miracles must happen. Miracles must be taken in context; in the age of cave people I'm sure when lighening caused fire the people thought it was a miracle: we now know what causes fire. Does that mean that we must dismiss anything that we don't currently yet understand as a "miracle?" or something written in an unverifiable book of questionable origins as a "miracle?". Of course not. Atheism simply states what's already obvious to most intelligent people: that there has been no empirical, scientific or logical evidence to prove the existence of God, the Tooth Fairy or the Boogie Man. Until you prove such a statement false using hard evidence (the same kind we use to believe in anything else on this planet other than religion), you can continue to write your long, drawn out article series (that would put politicians answers to shame with they way they continually dodge the underlying problem with all your logic) and achieve nothing. But don't get me wrong, I am enjoying reading them. Cheers - ScienceBoy Click here to reply to this post
Re: Why he is wrong: on infallability and delusion
Posted On: 01/04/07 01:12:33 PM
Age 45, AR
You are correct in stating that atheists do not believe in the infallibility of evolution. Atheists believe in the ultimacy of human autonomy. And, for the present, evolution serves to protect this belief. The atheist will cling to evolution until the burden of endorsing evolution begins to undermine his commitment to the ultimacy of human reason. At that time, evolution will be rejected for some new theory which better protects human autonomy. For now, evolution is the most credible explanation for the origin of the species, given a worldview of humanism and methodological naturalism. Given a supernaturalistic worldview, the affirmation of evolution is just as ridiculous as is the denial of evolution to the humanist/naturalist. The issue reduces to one of competing worldviews; supernaturalism versus naturalism. The atheist wants to argue in terms of empirical, scientific and logical proofs. But, he must first establish that his worldview provides a foundation for such proof. This he cannot do. The very proposition of empirical, scientific, and logic proof necessitates the true existence of universal, absolute, unchanging, transcendentals. These in turn necessitate a supernatural worldview. After all, there are no universal, absolute, unchanging transcendentals in naturalism. The atheist's demand for proof is alone sufficient to falsify his naturalistic worldview. As his worldview collapses, his evolutionism and scientism collapse also. Click here to reply to this post
Re: Why he is wrong: on infallability and delusion
Posted On: 01/04/07 10:41:32 AM
Age 63, OH
You say "there has been no empirical scientific or logical evidence to prove the existence of God". This statement is not empirical, scientific, or logical. When Isaac Newton discovered calculus he used it to solve many problems that others could not solve for over 10 years. Many other would have said calculus did not exist. But it did exist and had already been used to solve many "unsolvable" problems. These problems that were unsolvable to those without the method were solvable to Isaac who had the method. The same is true with your statement. Just because you have been unable to prove the existence of God does not mean that I have not had His existence proven to me with empirical scientific and logical evidence. I hope you have a good day. --- Newton Click here to reply to this post
Re: Re: Why he is wrong: on infallability and delusion
Posted On: 01/04/07 01:06:40 PM
Age 20, UN
Thank you for your feedback. I'm afraid once again I must confront the problems with Religious Circular Logic so prevelent on this site. You claim that the existance of something, even if believed in, can have an impact on something so therefore it exists. This of course can be turned to say that the non existance of something, even if believed, can't have an impact. It's a politician-style answer that proves nothing. I envy your position that you were able to accept your personal God, as Al Franken said "it must be great to be so absolutely certain about things. I don't have that luxury." *Unlike* "strong atheists", I am a "weak atheist" and I don't have a problem with religious folk, but when one deluded person starts writing a movie length series on why he can't be an atheist and using nothing but false pretenses and a clear lack of understanding to justify his crumbling arguments I felt it necessary, as an actual Atheist, to correct some of his oversights. Cheers - ScienceBoy Click here to reply to this post
Re: Re: Re: Why he is wrong: on infallability and delusion
Posted On: 01/05/07 12:28:36 AM
Age 63, OH
You seem to me to be making a false assumption. I am not saying that there was an effect therefore God must exit. I am saying if there is a God who created this vast universe then it seems to me that He could do anything. He would be able to prove His existence to anyone He chose. You can say that you don't know there is a God and I would believe you. But if you say that I don't KNOW there is a God you are the one being illogical. You can not know what I know or do not know. You can say that you do not believe me if I say I know there is a God and that would not be illogical. Do you know your father exist. I would not say you are using circular reasoning if you say you do. I know God exists because I have met Him face to face the same as you have met your father face to face. Click here to reply to this post
Atheism requires evolution
Posted On: 01/03/07 01:10:17 PM
Age 18, MN
In terms of there being no empircal evidence for the existence of God, it depends on how you interepret the evidence. The complexity of our bodies (running around the clock, the ability to see color, etc.) is a fact. So how do we interpret the evidence? Well, when we see complexity (such as a car) we tend to recognize that there was a maker behind it (Theistic argument). The evolutionist (and, presumably, the atheist) would argue that the complexity comes from natural selection and mutations (Except of course, natural selection doesn't add new information in one's DNA or whatever and mutations typically tend to damage and reduce the level of info.) Incidentally, the atheist (in order to remain an atheist) must throw out creation and accept evolution (unless, somebody can provide a third alternative). So, in that sense, evolution for the atheist is infallible, because their presuppostion already locks off on of the option (unless they give up their atheism). And (some)atheists tend to hold evolution just as much, or even more, fervor than theists (it's not "cool" to criticize Darwin in the public schools in, at least, the USA). In terms of miracles, how can we prove that the Big Bang produced everything that we have today (ultimately)? I mean, when the USA nuked Japan, it didn't increase complexity or add information to the Hiroshima and Nagasaki. I have to point out that we never saw or observed the origin of the universe (regardless of our religeous, or so-called irreligeous, biases). So, one can't prove the big bang or God making the world...or can one? Incidentally, if one can provide strong evidence for the Bible's authenticity and reliability, then I could say for certain that someone did observe the universe's origin. Answers in Genesis has some great articles on evidence and evolution vs. creation (www.answersingenesis.org). Note: Christians don't necessarily say that the unexplained=miracles. Hope you had a Merry Christmas and Happy New Year! Click here to reply to this post
Afraid not, atheism does not requires evolution
Posted On: 01/04/07 07:16:08 AM
Age 20, UN
You should become a politican, you're very good at craftily responding to questions without actually answering them :). Your argument that I and Atheists cannot prove what happened before or during the big bang because we weren't there and therefore we can't disprove God goes against every other logical thought process humans have ever devised. We don't try to prove that things don't exist, we prove that they do, otherwise I could challenge you to prove that I don't have 30 monkeys living in my closet. Just provide solid, irrefutable evidence and I, and all my Atheist friends, will believe you. Until then you can write the most detailed philosophical responses that dodge common sense and rational thinking and achieve what 2000 years of Christians have been able to prove... nothing. Oh and your comment about Atheism requiring evolution imples that I have a giant hole in my psyche because I don't believe in gods and therefore I must fill that void with Evolution... I'm just happy being thankful the universe exists! I did have a Merry Christmas, and a happy Deepavali and Hari Raya, thank you I hope you did too. Cheers - ScienceBoy Click here to reply to this post
Questions....
Posted On: 01/04/07 05:31:32 PM
Age 18, MN
Well, I apologize for not hitting the main point you were trying to get across. :) Question 1: What would you accept as evidence for the existence of God? Two: I'll try and clarify my statement about evolution by this question-Can you be an atheist, NOT believe in evolution, and be consistant? In terms about irrefutable evidence, it really isn't as simple as it sounds. I recall reading about this one Christian college student meeting with this atheist who was nicknamed "Orange" (hair color was the reason). Anyway, the Christian asked Orange at a party what it would take for him to believe that Jesus was really the Christ. Well, Orange replied, "If a 16 foot tall angel suddenly appeared and 'Jesus is the Lord!', I would become a Christian." The Christian then re-iterated what he had said by asking, "OK, so let's say, all of a sudden, an angel DID appear and say, 'Jesus is Lord!' What would be your first thought?" Orange replied, "I would have concluded that someone had spiked the punch!" Now, I'm not saying, ScienceBoy, that your like Orange; I am saying that this was a case of evidence (theoretical, yes, but nonetheless, what if had happened?), but Orange would have interpreted it differently than what he had really said (by his own admission). Now, if you like evidence, I highly recommend two websites: www.probe.org and www.answersingenesis.org, where they've got lots of material on evidence and so forth. Also, did you ever take up MN 27 on his offer to send you Mark Cahill's book? In addition, I can say that I would be interested in what evidence you have for the God's non-existence. I know that you have said that you could 'carbon-copy' the arguments, but humor me, since I haven't been doing this until recently. Finally, let me put in a word of concern again. Even if I can't prove God's existence, it doesn't mean there isn't one (or that there is one). Just do consider what it would mean if I was right in the end and you are wrong. Glad you have a Merry Christmas! Click here to reply to this post